Ghostcrawler: 'Mistakes' Were Made in DK Design

In response to a thread on the official forums stating Death Knights were blatantly overpowered from their creation, Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street listed five mistakes the World of Warcraft development team made when designing the class. He does remind us, however, that the team "didn't make DKs intentionally OP" and he doesn't view the introduction of Death Knights as a failure.

  1. The team avoided adding some of the limitations of other classes since they learned a lot about class design over the years. "We gave the early DK an answer to almost everything."
  2. DKs "became a little too versatile" to counter the attitude that players wouldn't have room for the class in their raids and Arena teams.
  3. The team may have listened to the community "a little too much" by adding or buffing abilities when it wasn't needed.
  4. All of the blue items given to starting DKs "helped lead to the perception of favoritism." There may have been a better way for the team to communicate its goals for the hero class.
  5. The developers "just had bad luck" when the DK's cooldown-based tanking became highly effective in boss encounters and the plate/spell damage combo was highly lethal in early Arena seasons.

Check out Ghostcrawler's full post after the jump.

We didn't make DKs intentionally OP. While we want people to purchase Wrath of the Lich King, there are lot of logical flaws with making one class purposely overpowered (such as angering all the players who play the other nine classes).

We made a few mistakes though, which I don't mind being up front about.

1) We have learned a lot about making classes. With the DK, we avoided some of the limitations other classes have. In the absence of a lot of tradition, we gave the early DK an answer to almost everything. While we definitely don't want to keep some of the crud that has built up on the older classes, it turns out when you make a new class without any of that junk before you scrub away the older stuff, you get a class that is too powerful. Who would have thought? The DK talent trees in particular had a lot of polish to make sure there weren't too many just terrible talents (a few haven't withstood the last year as well as others though).

To use just two examples, DKs can tank or PvP with any tree (though not necessarily with the same talent allocation per tree), and DKs have runes, a resource that is limited over short periods of time instead of long periods of time, yet they also have runic power that is quite useful in those periods where they may not have runes available. In some ways, the DK benefited from having two resources. (To be fair, there are weaknesses inherent in the rune model as well which players who have never played a DK seriously tend to overlook.)

2) As we started to work on the DK, we talked to PvP and PvE players who were comfortable with the BC status quo. What I mean is that raid leaders told us they didn't have room for DKs and Arena teams told us they didn't see the need to replace anyone on their team (especially a melee class without MS). Partially to counter this attitude, we gave the DKs a lot of different tools to handle different situations. They became a little too versatile. (Later, part of the big buff / debuff overhaul was designed to fix the same situation.)

3) I think this was one of those cases where we listened to the community, especially the beta participants, a little too much. Players had totally legit concerns about say the DK being too kiteable or the DK tank not having an answer for physical damage or whatever. Since we didn't have a ton of history or personal experience to fall back on and couldn't analyze a lot of data from live servers, we probably gave players the benefit of the doubt too often and added or buffed abilities when we didn't need to. More hardcore PvP and raid testing on the beta or PTR might help as well, since a lot of those concerns were born of solo experiences or pure speculation.

4) I think the fact that we showered the DK in blue items and mounts (to help them level up to the Northrend content quickly) and all of the effort we put into the start zone helped lead to the perception of favoritism. It feels weird to suggest we should have made the starting experience less epic to just to tone it down. On the other hand, maybe there was a way to communicate our goals better. A lot of players took the "hero class" thing (which really only meant that we modeled them after the Warcraft III heroes) to mean they should be overpowered, which was never our intent.

5) I think we just had bad luck with at least two of the DK systems. Their plate + spell damage combo just happened to be quite lethal in the early Arena seasons where 2s were predominant and burst damage was too high. Their cooldown-based tanking just ended up being really effective against a lot of the boss encounters. We didn't set out for either of those situations to be too uber. If the DK had been a caster, I don't think casters would have dominated the earlier seasons. If health pools had grown more (as they did going into BC) and we had been harsher about mana regen, then perhaps tanking wouldn't have been so overshadowed by giant boss hits that could only be survived by chaining say IBF and Bone Shield.

Ultimately, I wouldn't view the introduction of the new class as a failure by any stretch. There are a lot of players who love their DK even when she isn't overpowered. Adding a new class is a challenge, which we knew going in, and the DK didn't disappoint in that regards. It has taken a lot of iteration to kind of catch the death knight up all of the years of iteration on the existing classes, and I'm sure they're not done yet. It's also a good reason not to introduce a new class every expansion. :)

Comments

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balance needed
# Sep 22 2009 at 5:13 PM Rating: Default
i find on my server at least,

that those that cry the "why should my pve abilities / dps be nerfed for pvp reasons" are the ones playing
druids and paladins decked out in the latest arena gear...


funny dont you think
Square might be onto something
# Sep 22 2009 at 4:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,069 posts
For once I think Blizzard needs to take a page from SquareEnix. Before I left FF11 (not what you think, I really had no issues with the game I just...lost touch with friends and the game just didn't mean enough to me without them) Square decided to move away from nerfing everything in sight if it appeared op. Instead of bringing a job down they started moving the others up.

Instead of nerfing dual wielding and Utsusemi (something a good bit of the community had been screaming for) they buffed those who used two-handers. They buffed how Paladins mitigated damage. They made blood tanking and other subjobs worth using again.

Perhaps Blizzard should do this instead. If Resto druids are op healers, bring up the other healing specs (especially since they seem to ignore how op they are).

I guarantee buffs would be welcomed more than nerfs. For dps, don't nerf the hybrids, buff the pure dpsers...ok buff mages they seem to need it if you look at the dps charts.

And the only way I see to fix pvp is to have two separate tool tips one for arena and one for the rest of the game. Most hardcore pve'ers don't bother doing arena and most hardcore arena goers don't bother with pve beyond hitting the lvl cap and doing dailies to support their fix. So I don't see much of a problem with changing the way talents work when in a certain area. The ones who take pvp seriously will learn the changes that affect them.
Square might be onto something
# Sep 22 2009 at 5:58 AM Rating: Good
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132 posts
Quote:
Perhaps Blizzard should do this instead. If Resto druids are op healers, bring up the other healing specs (especially since they seem to ignore how op they are).

I guarantee buffs would be welcomed more than nerfs. For dps, don't nerf the hybrids, buff the pure dpsers...ok buff mages they seem to need it if you look at the dps charts.

And the only way I see to fix pvp is to have two separate tool tips one for arena and one for the rest of the game.


Hey, that first one I've been saying for at least a year now, and I've been saying they should allow a different set of skill trees for PvP ever since they announced dual spec.


As for Druids, I'm starting to think it's the preferred class of the development team... in today's update, the Druids pretty much got better changes (I think one skill got reduced). I mean, if you want to talk about DK's being overpowered because of what they can do, look at a boomkin / tree heals druid and get back to me.
Square might be onto something
# Sep 22 2009 at 4:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Therenody wrote:

And the only way I see to fix pvp is to have two separate tool tips one for arena and one for the rest of the game. Most hardcore pve'ers don't bother doing arena and most hardcore arena goers don't bother with pve beyond hitting the lvl cap and doing dailies to support their fix. So I don't see much of a problem with changing the way talents work when in a certain area. The ones who take pvp seriously will learn the changes that affect them.


This.
Been playing the game a year and 7 months. I've seen some nerfs, some have hurt the classes I play.

I believe PvP and PvE should be looked at as 2 different WoW games.
I play on PvE and HARLEY ever PvP, I just don't like it that much to care. Why should my class suffer then because something about it makes it OP in PVP?

You have PvP and PvE servers. Change the game. Something about DK too strong in PvP? Ok change it, but I'm sure it is fone on the PvE side.

This idea can also go towards the Holiday stuff. I'll never get the Drake mount on a toon. I don't PvP.
____________________________
Sandinmyeye | |Tsukaremashi*a |
Square might be onto something
# Sep 22 2009 at 5:33 AM Rating: Good
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267 posts
Quote:
This idea can also go towards the Holiday stuff. I'll never get the Drake mount on a toon. I don't PvP.


Agree. The achievement during Childrens week where you're supposed to take an orphan along while you achieve very specific goals on battlegrounds is probably the single thing that will stop me from getting a violet drake. I don't pvp much and when I do, I'm not capping flags etc since I play a class/spec that's far better at supporting a carrier rather than fighting my own team mates for the flag. Stupid stupid achievement.
DK
# Sep 21 2009 at 9:55 PM Rating: Decent
Well if you combine good spell and physical damage mitigation with good spell burst damage with largest number of CC and interrupt skills that any other class have what you can expect other that overpowered pvp class.

To have balanced pvp some of these needs to be taken away damage mitigation or burst spell damage or CC and interrupt skills. You can’t have them all in same class same time. It seems that Blizzard way of fixing is to takes away little bit everything.

This doesn’t automatically mend nerfing DK but adding other classes anti DK skills is one way to fix this. We really need anti DK class to balance arena fight more.
DK
# Sep 21 2009 at 10:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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132 posts
F*** balanced PvP.

PvP was an afterthought in this game, and I'm tired of getting all my toons nerfed because their abilities, which are fine in PvE, are considered "overpowered" by the PvP whiners. All of a sudden my abilities that worked decently in PvE are now nerfed to the point of being useless because of the PvP sissies.

Seriously, PvP players claim to be the hardcore guys, but they're the biggest group of whiners in the game.
DK
# Sep 22 2009 at 2:42 AM Rating: Good
just except the nerfs; as an Ex-shaman I've come to expect them :\

Until Blizzard breaks down and recodes PvE and PvP variations of each skill (like Repent lasting 1min [PvE] but 20sec [PvP]) they will constantly nerf and buff classes.

The other problem is the players themselves. Would you roll a class that sucks right from the get-go? No, you would roll a class that was strong. Would you specc a crap-spec? No, you'd look for the spec that will deal the most dmg (DPS), tank the best (Tank), or out heal all (Healing). And then everyone will jump on that bandwagon and you'll end up with everyone picking that class and spec.

Plus everyone seems to get the mind set that only cloths can/should have high crit numbers; after all that makes sense they trade durability (Plate or Plate-talents [Thick Hide-druid]) for the ability to nuke. Like wise, Plate wears trade in nuke-ability for durability. Not only that but they trade in spell-based attacks, which ignore armor, for physical attacks. Then comes along the DK and Paladin who:

*Wear Plate
*Can Nuke with a well times chain-skill-execution
*Deal 50% Spell / 50% Physical (of course not truly 50/50)

And now we have a recipe for being OP. We have a one-up on Casters because we can kill them in 3 hits, all while interrupting their attacks. We have a one-up on other Plates because we deal spell dmg in addition to physical.

Next we also look at the fact Armor Penetration is now being picked up; wouldn't you like to be able to negate 20% armor? I know I would.

All in all, it's a lot of little things all coming together that gives the impression a certain class is OP.

-Heres to watching another class becoming useless...next up: Warlocks and their 15k Chaos Bolt crits
Back in the day
# Sep 21 2009 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
It really seems like the people who first worked on wow are gone and what we have here is the second team. Wow is still great, but not as great as it was, and there is no sense of security with the people who are running it now. The idea that the DK was not overpowered to sell the expansion and then nerfed back for pvp balance is not very convincing. Nevertheless for those who leveled DKs the nerfs hurt a lot, especially falling right off the damage meter. Really, wow is so complicated at this point it takes a genius to figure it out, and so... sorry to say it's not really going to work. This latest move nerfing crafting and the reputation rewards with TOC - it looks like blizzard is trying to appeal to the eight to twelve crowd. And constantly nerfing classes to attempt pvp balance and never ever succeeding - bound to irritate the pve players. The people who designed gnomeregan and black rock mountain, that's the real heart of wow to me now - TOC is what the present designers think is clever.
Oh boy
# Sep 21 2009 at 7:08 PM Rating: Decent
At least in item #3 he admits "3) I think this was one of those cases where we listened to the community, especially the beta participants, a little too much."

now how about some rollbacks.... Blood heal nerfs were just out of control, if other toons can heal and crit heal I do not see why we are any different. Try killing a druid in BGs the most absurd thing I have every experience playing such an OP class but not making a dent in a silly tree that can just run around in circles. A. We lost too much burst B. Stop fing with our defensive CD's 2 Minutes on everything we have is just silly I can barely time all the stupid CDs we have already its harder in an encounter when you have to manage all the resources we have to deal with just to stay alive. Dks are not the easiest class in the game to play, as a matter of contention they the opposite. Stop listening to the kids who cry if they dont win, and start actually doing some of your own player development work yourself. It really feels like they had us right in the beginning but did not prepare the other classes well enough to handle how powerful this "Hero" class was out of the gate, and that is the true issue here. Instead almost every patch since then has been one issue after another. Going from being able to take on a ret pally one on one and having a chance to win that fight to not being able to even down a Holy Pally is just aweful. Let along how hard tanking has become, forcing us almost to have to be frost speccd. There is no you can tank in any tree anymore any more than there is DKs are OP. I die more to rogue stun locks still because of the CD changes and that's just bad.

No matter what when you are being kited your dps is **** to begin with, add that we have no burst anymore, when I am in BGs I just ignore Disc priests, druids, and resto shamans cause its just too much work, and takes too damn long. No fight should last 5 minutes or longer just to end up dead cause they have all the time in the world for their buddies to res and run back to ya. So annoying. Getting 13K crits from casters but barely being able to pull off a 6k crit in PVP on a cloth toon just seems off. What my 950resil for anyway?

Talk to the DKs right now and get their input on how things are at this moment for PVE or PVP. Because of the mess they have made with our CD, heals, the resource system we are stuck with too few resource (should be at least 3 of each rune), DKs feel very much like riding a bike with square wheels in the Tour De France.



about time
# Sep 21 2009 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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71 posts
Quote:
The "hero class" explanation is utter BS also. Back when they were promoting it, they lead everyone to believe that this would be an elite, powerful class that you had to work hard to get


It's easy to want one class to be superior over all others when DK is the only hero class at this time. Do you guys not understand the need for balance? if everyone could pick up a DK and just faceroll everything in PvE and PvP there would be nothing else. There are already way too many DK's around.

Don't kid yourself to say any class in this game takes skill. The balance issue is one of the main reasons why I quit playing this game and I know I am not alone. I would welcome a nerf, and a solution to the constant need to nerf PvE for arena purposes.
great...
# Sep 21 2009 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
agreed with every other comment so far. Playing as unholy gives you a nice front row seat to watch the nerfs hit.


how nerfs are born:

1) an eight year old gets owned by a dk who both out gears and out skills his 130 resillience rogue
2) that eight year old complains to blizzard about how op dks are
3) blizzard assumes the eight year old is speaking on behalf of his entire class
4) blizzard nerfs dk
5) blizzard nerfs dk again for fun
6) former dks roll druids to be safe from ever being nerfed again.
Hmmm
# Sep 21 2009 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
I don't have a problem with anything Ghostcrawler said,as long as he isn't saying it as a prelude to nerfing the hell out of DK even more.

There's a small nerf to our ghoul stun ability on the PTR right now.doubled the cooldown.
Hmmm
# Sep 21 2009 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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132 posts
Of course it's a prelude to a nerf! That's the Bliz answer to everything. Nerf, nerf, nerf. Don't make other classes better, make the good one suck as much as the others!

Not to mention there's a core of whining children that constantly scream about DK's being OP (they're not, it's based on skill like everything else - learn to play your character). So yeah, expect another DK nerf soon.

The "hero class" explanation is utter BS also. Back when they were promoting it, they lead everyone to believe that this would be an elite, powerful class that you had to work hard to get. Of course then they changed the requirements to get a DK based on player whining, but they never said that they were changing the power level.
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