Things to note:
1) I'm not a raider. Though I do raid in pugs and with friends that are in guilds as an alt, eg someone doesn't show up and I happen to be playing that night, but as for farming up emblems.... I just got my second piece of t10 3 weeks ago and my third this weekend with a lucky roll in a 25man VoA. I've never stepped foot in ICC.
2) I've been prot from the start....mmmm... April of '07. I'm what you call the casual player. 4 kids, job and a hot gf... I sometimes get to play wow (12 hrs a week maybe).
3) I'm lost! So I'm looking for the down and dirty. After getting my legs from VoA I went to look at bis chant (thinking I've got 3 pieces of t10 I should do that now) and have found that the tanking game has changed....
Yeah, I've got the defence of 540+, and I know the hit cap is 296 without a Draenei and 263 with (and I'm below that, yeah...).
So the leg enchant is Stam and.... Agility?
Attack power is something to look into because of our spells scale with spellpower & ap (except ShR and HotR).
A really good tank can come under the 540 def (unheard of in BC...though the # was lower), if they have enough other avoidance?
Why the post?
What is a good block % to be sitting at? Parry? Dodge?
Is there an avoidace goal anymore? (used to be 102.7% if i remember correctly)
What is a good AP value for prot pallys?
Gear check? (givin' my playing time).
Is there a down and dirty faq for casual players (5 man with the off Toc 10/25 man) in 3.3?
I'm a survival tank who 5 man's a lot. Threat is usually not a big deal for me. I understand it's important... just saying I don't have many problems keeping it (unless there's some mad mage pulling 6k tps!).
Thanks for any and all help!
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The down and dirtyFollow
Agility = Armor, Avoidance(dodge) and Crit (threat)
536 def is fine for raids if you are using the Gladiator Shoulder Glyph (30sta/15 resilience), less for heroics.
I have found the major flaw with stacking avoidance for heroics is the same as in BC. Once you severely outgear heroics as a tank your mana regen really sucks. Not as bad in Wrath because we have Divine Plea but there are certain heroics still that become a problem (Violet Hold, Occulus and even Forge of Souls) because you can't effectively chain pull the instance.
Avoidance has really been well avoided, since we started tanking Tier 8 content and as a result lots of the newer gear has substituted more armor in instead of it. If you want to stack it I suggest changing your trinkets. Grab the ToC10 or ToGC10 Faction Champs trinket (passive dodge) and even the Glyph(dodge on effect) trinket from the Triumph vendor. ToC is easily puggable nowadays, even ToGC. I would say that even the ToC5 nonheroic trinket from the Black Knight would still be a viable upgrade over the Brewfest ones you have.
As far as TPS goes Strength is number one, especially after you have reached your expertise and hit caps. Prefer this over Attack Power wherever possible. Block Value is also high up there for TPS. For more threat get a Blacksmith to make you a +BV plate for your shield.
Also I would recommend changing your build. Check my build out if you like (link is in my sig). With the amount of passive Hit and Expertise you have, using Seal of Command on trash in heroics would give you way more TPS than any other enchant or piece of gear, especially considering you have glyphed for extra cleaves.
Edit: Forgot the links!
You would come under a level 3 5man tank in this guide.
This is a nice guide on how to gem/enchant your gear.
This one is a nice guide that talks about using different gear sets depending on what you want to do.
Edited, Aug 17th 2010 3:19am by arthoriuss
Edited, Aug 17th 2010 5:17am by arthoriuss
536 def is fine for raids if you are using the Gladiator Shoulder Glyph (30sta/15 resilience), less for heroics.
I have found the major flaw with stacking avoidance for heroics is the same as in BC. Once you severely outgear heroics as a tank your mana regen really sucks. Not as bad in Wrath because we have Divine Plea but there are certain heroics still that become a problem (Violet Hold, Occulus and even Forge of Souls) because you can't effectively chain pull the instance.
Avoidance has really been well avoided, since we started tanking Tier 8 content and as a result lots of the newer gear has substituted more armor in instead of it. If you want to stack it I suggest changing your trinkets. Grab the ToC10 or ToGC10 Faction Champs trinket (passive dodge) and even the Glyph(dodge on effect) trinket from the Triumph vendor. ToC is easily puggable nowadays, even ToGC. I would say that even the ToC5 nonheroic trinket from the Black Knight would still be a viable upgrade over the Brewfest ones you have.
As far as TPS goes Strength is number one, especially after you have reached your expertise and hit caps. Prefer this over Attack Power wherever possible. Block Value is also high up there for TPS. For more threat get a Blacksmith to make you a +BV plate for your shield.
Also I would recommend changing your build. Check my build out if you like (link is in my sig). With the amount of passive Hit and Expertise you have, using Seal of Command on trash in heroics would give you way more TPS than any other enchant or piece of gear, especially considering you have glyphed for extra cleaves.
Edit: Forgot the links!
You would come under a level 3 5man tank in this guide.
This is a nice guide on how to gem/enchant your gear.
This one is a nice guide that talks about using different gear sets depending on what you want to do.
Edited, Aug 17th 2010 3:19am by arthoriuss
Edited, Aug 17th 2010 5:17am by arthoriuss
Thank you!
So I love your build. I was working over why Vindicaton and Pursuit of Justice instead of Conviction, but I see the migation of Vincication and I honestly love the increased speed... the 50% on debuff is nice too. Reminds me of a build I used in BC.
I noticed your hit ratting is 129. Is that ok? I see by your "Recent Activity", it's not hurting you any. Just wondering the theroy craft on that. Espically sinced the actual attack(s) made when Seal of Command procs are resolved as separate melee special-attacks that deal holy damage. They resolved identically to any Instant Attack — they can miss, be dodged, be parried, be blocked.
I was looking at the tank set link and found the Holistic set... I'm basically running this.
The Basics of an Overall Set -
540 Defense
Dodge and Parry ratio of 1.88:1
26 Expertise
>35k HP
>200 Hit
So I noticed the >200 hit. Is hit really not as much of a priority as I'm making it? I see in the threat set it's pushed hard... and I get that. But if you hold threat ok without going that hardcore, where is a good place to stop?
Mana regen... yeah I'm meeting that in Heroics already. My simple solution (besides DP) is switch to ret aura, take more damage and get more heals. As the rest of my group is WAY under my threat, they really only need heals on aoe and random attacks.
Slot-by-slot enchant analysis:
Weapon
[Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining]: Potentially up to ~2k self-heal when you drop under 35% health
[Enchant Weapon - Blade Ward]: Chance for +200 parry rating and damage on parry
[Enchant Weapon - Accuracy]: +25 hit rating, +25 crit rating
[Enchant Weapon - Exceptional Agility]: +26 agility
[Titanium Weapon Chain]: +28 hit rating, 50% reduction in duration for disarm effects.
[Enchant Weapon - Potency]: +20 strength
EJ Source
I find it odd that Crusader chant is not on the list. Anyone know the theroy on that?
L8tr!
So I love your build. I was working over why Vindicaton and Pursuit of Justice instead of Conviction, but I see the migation of Vincication and I honestly love the increased speed... the 50% on debuff is nice too. Reminds me of a build I used in BC.
I noticed your hit ratting is 129. Is that ok? I see by your "Recent Activity", it's not hurting you any. Just wondering the theroy craft on that. Espically sinced the actual attack(s) made when Seal of Command procs are resolved as separate melee special-attacks that deal holy damage. They resolved identically to any Instant Attack — they can miss, be dodged, be parried, be blocked.
I was looking at the tank set link and found the Holistic set... I'm basically running this.
The Basics of an Overall Set -
540 Defense
Dodge and Parry ratio of 1.88:1
26 Expertise
>35k HP
>200 Hit
So I noticed the >200 hit. Is hit really not as much of a priority as I'm making it? I see in the threat set it's pushed hard... and I get that. But if you hold threat ok without going that hardcore, where is a good place to stop?
Mana regen... yeah I'm meeting that in Heroics already. My simple solution (besides DP) is switch to ret aura, take more damage and get more heals. As the rest of my group is WAY under my threat, they really only need heals on aoe and random attacks.
Slot-by-slot enchant analysis:
Weapon
[Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining]: Potentially up to ~2k self-heal when you drop under 35% health
[Enchant Weapon - Blade Ward]: Chance for +200 parry rating and damage on parry
[Enchant Weapon - Accuracy]: +25 hit rating, +25 crit rating
[Enchant Weapon - Exceptional Agility]: +26 agility
[Titanium Weapon Chain]: +28 hit rating, 50% reduction in duration for disarm effects.
[Enchant Weapon - Potency]: +20 strength
EJ Source
I find it odd that Crusader chant is not on the list. Anyone know the theroy on that?
L8tr!
I've decided for myself that getting low on mana despite having DP up simply means that I'm not pulling enough mobs. Seems an easy enough fix. The only time I ever have issues is with well geared Disc priests and sometimes Shamans anyway. At the same time, our mana pool is so tiny that it only takes 2-3 seconds to drink up to full and I'm just taking that time if I absolutely have to.
The problem with Crusader is that the enchant loses in effectiveness with every level above 60. I think I've read somewhere that it's like 4% each, bringing it down 20 Strength at level 80. You could get a Potency enchant for the same effect and have 100% uptime.
The problem with Crusader is that the enchant loses in effectiveness with every level above 60. I think I've read somewhere that it's like 4% each, bringing it down 20 Strength at level 80. You could get a Potency enchant for the same effect and have 100% uptime.
And lose the life gain? True, at 4% it's something like 60 to 100 gain, but still... it does add up...
Quote:
True, at 4% it's something like 60 to 100 gain, but still... it does add up...
Not really once you figure in the proc rate of about once a minute. That's next to nothing during your typical 5 minute boss fight. An 80% reduction would mean it heals for 15-25, so you'd get at most 125 health total during that time.
Simskin wrote:
Thank you!
So I love your build. I was working over why Vindicaton and Pursuit of Justice instead of Conviction, but I see the migation of Vincication and I honestly love the increased speed... the 50% on debuff is nice too. Reminds me of a build I used in BC.
I noticed your hit ratting is 129. Is that ok? I see by your "Recent Activity", it's not hurting you any. Just wondering the theroy craft on that. Espically sinced the actual attack(s) made when Seal of Command procs are resolved as separate melee special-attacks that deal holy damage. They resolved identically to any Instant Attack — they can miss, be dodged, be parried, be blocked.
I was looking at the tank set link and found the Holistic set... I'm basically running this.
The Basics of an Overall Set -
540 Defense
Dodge and Parry ratio of 1.88:1
26 Expertise
>35k HP
>200 Hit
So I noticed the >200 hit. Is hit really not as much of a priority as I'm making it? I see in the threat set it's pushed hard... and I get that. But if you hold threat ok without going that hardcore, where is a good place to stop?
Mana regen... yeah I'm meeting that in Heroics already. My simple solution (besides DP) is switch to ret aura, take more damage and get more heals. As the rest of my group is WAY under my threat, they really only need heals on aoe and random attacks.
Slot-by-slot enchant analysis:
Weapon
[Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining]: Potentially up to ~2k self-heal when you drop under 35% health
[Enchant Weapon - Blade Ward]: Chance for +200 parry rating and damage on parry
[Enchant Weapon - Accuracy]: +25 hit rating, +25 crit rating
[Enchant Weapon - Exceptional Agility]: +26 agility
[Titanium Weapon Chain]: +28 hit rating, 50% reduction in duration for disarm effects.
[Enchant Weapon - Potency]: +20 strength
EJ Source
I find it odd that Crusader chant is not on the list. Anyone know the theroy on that?
L8tr!
So I love your build. I was working over why Vindicaton and Pursuit of Justice instead of Conviction, but I see the migation of Vincication and I honestly love the increased speed... the 50% on debuff is nice too. Reminds me of a build I used in BC.
I noticed your hit ratting is 129. Is that ok? I see by your "Recent Activity", it's not hurting you any. Just wondering the theroy craft on that. Espically sinced the actual attack(s) made when Seal of Command procs are resolved as separate melee special-attacks that deal holy damage. They resolved identically to any Instant Attack — they can miss, be dodged, be parried, be blocked.
I was looking at the tank set link and found the Holistic set... I'm basically running this.
The Basics of an Overall Set -
540 Defense
Dodge and Parry ratio of 1.88:1
26 Expertise
>35k HP
>200 Hit
So I noticed the >200 hit. Is hit really not as much of a priority as I'm making it? I see in the threat set it's pushed hard... and I get that. But if you hold threat ok without going that hardcore, where is a good place to stop?
Mana regen... yeah I'm meeting that in Heroics already. My simple solution (besides DP) is switch to ret aura, take more damage and get more heals. As the rest of my group is WAY under my threat, they really only need heals on aoe and random attacks.
Slot-by-slot enchant analysis:
Weapon
[Enchant Weapon - Blood Draining]: Potentially up to ~2k self-heal when you drop under 35% health
[Enchant Weapon - Blade Ward]: Chance for +200 parry rating and damage on parry
[Enchant Weapon - Accuracy]: +25 hit rating, +25 crit rating
[Enchant Weapon - Exceptional Agility]: +26 agility
[Titanium Weapon Chain]: +28 hit rating, 50% reduction in duration for disarm effects.
[Enchant Weapon - Potency]: +20 strength
EJ Source
I find it odd that Crusader chant is not on the list. Anyone know the theroy on that?
L8tr!
That is the set I usually tank raids with. Hit isn't really a huge problem for me on raid bosses as I use the RD taunt glyph. Hit is good but due to drops and the fact I prefer to favour expertise I don't go out of my way to gear for it. My 5man heroic set is hit/expertised capped but tanking raid bosses usually doesn't require the same snap threat building that oodles of hit rating gives you. For 5man heroics I would definitely look at hit/expertise capping yourself. It might be worth going with Accuracy on your weapon and subbing out some hit gems or enchants.
You guys are fantastic!
I got to do some randoms with the new build. I'm liking it a lot. I do have to be a little more aware of my mana pool, but it's not much different.
Thanks for the tip on Crusader, I have now seen the FoL!
And also on the hit cap. I usually grub down a food that gives me hit before I start the evening.
Also, I've see a nice increase in my dps.
Got another one for all you pvp'rs. Anyone build a kick @$$ prot pvp yet?
2's? 3's? ect....
I got to do some randoms with the new build. I'm liking it a lot. I do have to be a little more aware of my mana pool, but it's not much different.
Thanks for the tip on Crusader, I have now seen the FoL!
And also on the hit cap. I usually grub down a food that gives me hit before I start the evening.
Also, I've see a nice increase in my dps.
Got another one for all you pvp'rs. Anyone build a kick @$$ prot pvp yet?
2's? 3's? ect....
Prot PvP can be lethal but easily gets mana starved.
You take the full Ret PvP gear with a few of your prot peices thrown in to increase Block Value, the aim is to make Sheild of Righteousness hit like a truck. Use as slow a weapon as you can find. Spec prot with ret subspec to pick up Seal of Command and all the crit bonuses.
Glyph for Avengers Shield (you will see insane crits that can really **** up healers combined with the silence), and I would consider Glyphing Shield of Righteousness, that way you can keep up the damage even when mana is painfully low.
You take the full Ret PvP gear with a few of your prot peices thrown in to increase Block Value, the aim is to make Sheild of Righteousness hit like a truck. Use as slow a weapon as you can find. Spec prot with ret subspec to pick up Seal of Command and all the crit bonuses.
Glyph for Avengers Shield (you will see insane crits that can really **** up healers combined with the silence), and I would consider Glyphing Shield of Righteousness, that way you can keep up the damage even when mana is painfully low.
Some people prefer using two pieces of t10 with pvp gear to make HotR hit really hard. I just use a mix of my best pvp and pve ret gear; i like keeping strength as high as possible since it affects all your damage. You really don't need much above 850 - 900 res even in serious arena matches because prot has such natural defense.
Seal of Command is good for a BG spec if you throw yourself into huge melees, but seal of vengeance/corruption is what you use to do terrifying single target damage. It stacks very fast with a one-hander (and reckoning) and of course hammer of the righteous applies it too. As a bonus, it also covers other debuffs applied to the target preventing defensive dispells (because you apply it faster than it can possibly be dispelled stack by stack).
Seal of Command is good for a BG spec if you throw yourself into huge melees, but seal of vengeance/corruption is what you use to do terrifying single target damage. It stacks very fast with a one-hander (and reckoning) and of course hammer of the righteous applies it too. As a bonus, it also covers other debuffs applied to the target preventing defensive dispells (because you apply it faster than it can possibly be dispelled stack by stack).
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