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rogue spec HaS or CQC??Follow
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I'm am currently leveling a rogue and was wondering which spec is better for PVE and raiding HaS or CQC, mainly is it better to use fist/dagger combo or sword/mace combo or maybe 2 swords??? I/m not quite sure so any help would be greatly appreciated
If you're going combat, HnS is the most viable for end game DPS. I hear claims that CQC is getting close, but I'll believe it when I see some WoL.
jaysgsl wrote:
If you're going combat, HnS is the most viable for end game DPS. I hear claims that CQC is getting close, but I'll believe it when I see some WoL.
This, with the caveat: spec for what weapons you get. If you get your hands on a signficantly higher DPS fist/dagger combo and are hanging onto your Axe/Sword just for your spec ... respec until you get some equivalent swords/axes.
I would go sub before slumming as CQC, but I guess that's me.
I have yet to see any data supporting the idea that Sub is anywhere actually close to CQC. And the numbers you're showing in the Sub thread certainly don't make me change my mind.
I'll give you, it's probably the "fun" spec. But I haven't seen any evidence that it's remotely raid viable at the high end (which is where CQC falls behind HnS the most).
I'll give you, it's probably the "fun" spec. But I haven't seen any evidence that it's remotely raid viable at the high end (which is where CQC falls behind HnS the most).
So if CQC falls behind combat at high end anyway, and it's an extremely small difference between combat and sub at the mid range.... why CQC?
On Saurfang 10, I do around 6400 HnS, around 6K sub. HOWEVER, I did see something interesting in VoA. We were doing Toravon 10, and there was an EXTREMELY well geared combat rogue (around 271 average ilvl, so mostly 25 heroic gear). When I was combat (mind you, we tried the pull 5 times, 3 combat, 2 sub), he was pulling around 9K dps. When I went sub, it SHOT him up to around 13K DPS.
This requires much more experimentation with upper end melee classes, but it seems that just being a sub rogue brought the other rogue's dps up (Maybe something to do with the shorter C/D on tricks?)
On Saurfang 10, I do around 6400 HnS, around 6K sub. HOWEVER, I did see something interesting in VoA. We were doing Toravon 10, and there was an EXTREMELY well geared combat rogue (around 271 average ilvl, so mostly 25 heroic gear). When I was combat (mind you, we tried the pull 5 times, 3 combat, 2 sub), he was pulling around 9K dps. When I went sub, it SHOT him up to around 13K DPS.
This requires much more experimentation with upper end melee classes, but it seems that just being a sub rogue brought the other rogue's dps up (Maybe something to do with the shorter C/D on tricks?)
jaysgsl wrote:
So if CQC falls behind combat at high end anyway, and it's an extremely small difference between combat and sub at the mid range.... why CQC?
You have yet to prove this either. None of the numbers you've quoted in any thread have convinced me that Sub is anything less than a couple thousand DPS behind a well-played rogue from ToC10 up. CQC in the worst case scenario is a few hundred DPS behind HnS.
jaysgsl wrote:
This requires much more experimentation with upper end melee classes, but it seems that just being a sub rogue brought the other rogue's dps up (Maybe something to do with the shorter C/D on tricks?)
Or he just stopped sucking for his gear level. As my junk geared (5100 GS, 241 average ilvl) can pull 7-8k in a non-ideal group on Toravon 10 ... I'd be sad if a T10.75 geared rogue wasn't well over 10k.
Tricks is a 15% damage boost. Even if you could bring it from 20% (baseline) to 100% uptime, you're going to see at most a 12% increase in damage done (9k DPS -> 10.1k DPS). If you glyphed it and went Sub, you could bring it to 50% if you're hitting it on CD ... that'd be an average of ~4.5% damage increase (9k DPS -> 9.4k DPS).
There is absolutely no way in hell that your going Sub accounted for a 45% damage increase in a geared out combat rogue. I'll believe differently if you can give a REMOTELY plausible explanation for how the Hemo debuff accounted for that additional 40ish% damage increase.
I have no info, I'm only relaying the numbers.
At my current gear level (average 231 or so), sub is truly only a few hundred DPS behind. Mind you, this is with a tits combat rogue controlling my toon for a run (he was able to squeek out 6500 in my combat spec on Saurfang, he commonly does around 10K in his rogue at the same gear level as yours). 500 DPS is not a huge difference. I'm not asking you to switch to sub spec, I'm just saying that sub is at least equal with CQC when played correctly.
Of course, I don't honestly promote the use of dinner knives as weapons in any scenario, so HnS is by far the best choice.
At my current gear level (average 231 or so), sub is truly only a few hundred DPS behind. Mind you, this is with a tits combat rogue controlling my toon for a run (he was able to squeek out 6500 in my combat spec on Saurfang, he commonly does around 10K in his rogue at the same gear level as yours). 500 DPS is not a huge difference. I'm not asking you to switch to sub spec, I'm just saying that sub is at least equal with CQC when played correctly.
Of course, I don't honestly promote the use of dinner knives as weapons in any scenario, so HnS is by far the best choice.
jaysgsl wrote:
I have no info, I'm only relaying the numbers.
But you aren't relaying numbers that mean anything useful. Some extremely anecdotal numbers for one fight, with somebody else playing your toon as "combat" (which you appear to think means HnS, since you keep comparing "combat" to "CQC")... it's not even close to being a basis for comparison.
You've admitted in other threads that you use a stat priority system of Arp > Agil > AP > Expertise > hit - in other words, "wrong". Maybe combat suffers more from your messed up stat priorities than Sub does, who knows? Maybe your friend was using the same ruptureless cycle that works on his gear, but isn't appropriate for yours? I'm guessing on that part, but with an average iLvl of 231, I doubt you're at the point where ruptureless is the way to go, and you don't have your rogue in your sig for me to check the Armory.
jaysgsl wrote:
I'm just saying that sub is at least equal with CQC when played correctly.
You simply aren't justifying this. Where are your numbers for CQC vs Sub on the same fight, with both being appropriately geared for the spec, appropriately specced for the gear, and played by someone who has a clue how to play it?
Maybe Sub really is that close to Combat - frankly, I'd be delighted if it were, but you're making assertions with nothing to back them up.
Brother, not friend, but the point was, he gets identical numbers that I do when I play my rogue. I had to go take care of a minor emergency and asked that he hop on my toon for the pull, simply put.
He uses rupture, I use rupture, there was no difference there. The biggest difference is that he's a little sloppier with CDs (he pops killing spree after trinket, but before blade flurry, which to me is a no-no).
You can say what you will about stat priorities. I was gemmed full AP when I first hit 80. Then, I looked at my brother's toon, which is gemmed primarily ArP, and decided to give it a try. With all the gems I could afford to replace ArP, every time I replaced one, the DPS went up (on 10 minute dummy test runs). Then, when the AH had no more ArP gems, I used a few Agil gems I had bought as a just in case, and replaced the rest of my AP gems, and again the DPS went up (in both specs).
I'm curious. Are you telling me my stat priority is wrong for Sub or for Combat? Quite frankly, saying it's 'wrong' for sub is total ********* since no one REALLY knows how to play Sub. I've seen a theorycrafting thread on EJ, but it was all over the place, and they kept using sims as their reference.
Lemme tell you something about sims. They use a theorised stat weight system based on whatever you (or the sim dev) put in, and a rotation they put in. The sims are based on theoretical knowledge, and in the case of a spec like Sub (or Frost Mage) it's often times just WRONG.
My version of RAWR isn't absolutely up to date, but plugging my rogue into it, I get more DPS from my sub spec than they do. It was the EXACT same way with my Frost Mage.
My next statement is almost (almost) nullified by my previous, but when I put CQC spec in and equipped my rogue's dagger + a 245 dagger in her off hand, the SIM came out to the same numbers I realistically achieve as Sub in the game (6200, perfect conditions, no Hellscream buff. I did 6k on BQL last night with no bite, only having one triangle connection dealy. HnS was above, 7K average, as low as 6400).
He uses rupture, I use rupture, there was no difference there. The biggest difference is that he's a little sloppier with CDs (he pops killing spree after trinket, but before blade flurry, which to me is a no-no).
You can say what you will about stat priorities. I was gemmed full AP when I first hit 80. Then, I looked at my brother's toon, which is gemmed primarily ArP, and decided to give it a try. With all the gems I could afford to replace ArP, every time I replaced one, the DPS went up (on 10 minute dummy test runs). Then, when the AH had no more ArP gems, I used a few Agil gems I had bought as a just in case, and replaced the rest of my AP gems, and again the DPS went up (in both specs).
I'm curious. Are you telling me my stat priority is wrong for Sub or for Combat? Quite frankly, saying it's 'wrong' for sub is total ********* since no one REALLY knows how to play Sub. I've seen a theorycrafting thread on EJ, but it was all over the place, and they kept using sims as their reference.
Lemme tell you something about sims. They use a theorised stat weight system based on whatever you (or the sim dev) put in, and a rotation they put in. The sims are based on theoretical knowledge, and in the case of a spec like Sub (or Frost Mage) it's often times just WRONG.
My version of RAWR isn't absolutely up to date, but plugging my rogue into it, I get more DPS from my sub spec than they do. It was the EXACT same way with my Frost Mage.
My next statement is almost (almost) nullified by my previous, but when I put CQC spec in and equipped my rogue's dagger + a 245 dagger in her off hand, the SIM came out to the same numbers I realistically achieve as Sub in the game (6200, perfect conditions, no Hellscream buff. I did 6k on BQL last night with no bite, only having one triangle connection dealy. HnS was above, 7K average, as low as 6400).
I was saying your stat priority is wrong for Combat, and may be skewing your relative results to make Sub look better than it is. Not so much the ArP>Agi>AP part (highly suspect, mind you, until higher levels of ArP), but the part where you don't cap Expertise was the big warning sign. I'd be astonished if that's a good idea for any spec - dodged attacks do no damage, regardless of what spec you're in.
On the subject of "things you shouldn't do", did you just say that you're comparing your Sub numbers with CQC using daggers in both hands? That might explain a lot of your misconceptions about CQC vs Sub, right there.
On the subject of "things you shouldn't do", did you just say that you're comparing your Sub numbers with CQC using daggers in both hands? That might explain a lot of your misconceptions about CQC vs Sub, right there.
No, actually, my sub gear includes an axe OH. I could re-run the sim with the same axe in my OH as a CQC spec, but honestly, the stats are similar.
jaysgsl wrote:
No, actually, my sub gear includes an axe OH. I could re-run the sim with the same axe in my OH as a CQC spec, but honestly, the stats are similar.
My point was that CQC needs a slow (high average damage) fist weapon in the main hand. Using a dagger in the main hand gimps Combat DPS because you'll be getting crappy damage from SS. Put a decent fist weapon in the MH, and see what numbers you get for CQC, either in sims or in a real fight, and I'd expect you to see a big DPS increase.
Silly me.
I threw a 7 fingered claw and my normal ToCr sub dagger on. Got 6400 on the sim. Still not impressed.
Combat is not for dinner knives IMO.
I threw a 7 fingered claw and my normal ToCr sub dagger on. Got 6400 on the sim. Still not impressed.
Combat is not for dinner knives IMO.
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