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Taking a page from Feral for DK'sFollow

#1 Apr 10 2010 at 12:33 AM Rating: Good
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This is a copy of a suggestion I posted on the O-boards regarding DK tanks. Reading through the druid changes I realized a solution to the current DK problem that although is not perfect would be a compromise between more flexibility in developing DK tanking and DK dps.


Quote:
Looking at the changes for Feral druids I noticed Blizzard's solution to two specs being in one tree. Certain mastery bonuses come into play depending on what form the druid is in. If they are in bear form they get the tank bonuses and if they are in cat form they get the DPS bonuses.

Why not apply this to all three DK specs?

If you are in Frost presence your mastery and certain skills behave a certain way. If you are in Unholy or Blood presence your skills will operate a different way.

This could be taken a step further and turned into an interesting class mechanic. Beyond the current bland situational usage of the presences, you could make some talents work in different ways when in a different presence.


Examples (exaggerated and maybe not suggestions, but to give an idea of what I'm suggesting).



Blood Boil:

Frost Presence - When blood boil is used in Frost Presence and targets are suffering from a disease blood boil causes high threat and slows the attack speed of your attackers by X% amount for 6 seconds.

Blood Presence - When blood boil is used in Blood Presence the armor of all diseased targets hit by Blood Boil is reduced by X% amount for 6 seconds.

Unholy Presence - When blood boil is used in Unholy Presence against all targets suffering from a disease damage from diseases is increased by X%.



This could apply to many talents and skills in all of the trees. Not only would this add some flavor and thought to the use of presences, but would also allow each spec to retain their current tank and DPS specs. Say you want to buff damage for the Death Knight in tank but feel in DPS gear the buff would be too severe? Simply allow the ability to work differently depending on a presence.


This kind of functionality already exists in the feral trees today. One talent buffs bears while the other buffs cats.

This would allow us Frost and Unholy tanks to retain our tanking specs and give Blizzard more flexibility in the trees than they have today. I think this is a reasonable compromise for all of us who have invested massive amounts of time into our Blood DPS/Frost Tank/Unholy Tank characters and don't wish to have our tanking/dps functionality removed in Cataclysm.



My overall thought process was to save the other tanking specs while giving presences a grander role in the DK specs. Taking them from bland passive bonuses to more useful abilities. For example, one DK may intentionally use Unholy Presence for the Unholy Presence benefits their talents get on a certain boss fight. Not just for PvP or high movement fights.

At the same time frost presence, at least as far as PvE is concerned, would not be viable for DPS since it'd create too much threat. Thus frost presence bonuses would strictly be for tanks of any spec. You could take this system further and give a "presence mastery" similar in idea to the current ones in each tree. For example a blood DK tank could maintain threat and stamina bonus of Frost Presence in Blood Presence. Or a dual wielding frost DK could pickup a talent that would remove the threat and giving them the damage buff of Blood PResence while in Frost Presence allowing them to take advantage of certain frost presence bonuses.


If you're interested in my original post on the official suggestion forum:

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=24261057260&postId=242588844604&sid=1#0
#2 Apr 10 2010 at 1:39 AM Rating: Decent
Do you know how massive the tooltips would have to be to include 3 different spells depending on presence? Not to mention this would make DKs the most complicated class in the game.

However I'm a fan of a single tanking tree. It wouldn't bother me if it were a different tree, though personally I'm glad it's blood.
#3 Apr 10 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Good
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Dilbrt wrote:
Do you know how massive the tooltips would have to be to include 3 different spells depending on presence? Not to mention this would make DKs the most complicated class in the game.

However I'm a fan of a single tanking tree. It wouldn't bother me if it were a different tree, though personally I'm glad it's blood.



If you want to see massive tooltips take a look at some of the Rogue finishing tooltips. It wouldn't be any larger than that and could be easily simplified into...


Skill effect modified by presence
Blood: Does X for N seconds
Frost: Does V for N seconds
Unholy: Does Y for N seconds


And it wouldn't be applied to every skill or talent. It would be applied to talents/skills that Blizzard felt needed to have different effects. I'm not proposing this be applied to all or even half of a tree. Homogenizing DK's into dead warriors isn't why I signed onto the class.
#4 Apr 11 2010 at 5:06 AM Rating: Good
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It would be a way bigger pain.

Feral has 2 masteries. One for cat one for bear.

By your design all 3 DK trees would have to have 3 sets of mastery focuses that vary based on presence.

So DKs get 9 different masteries they have to balance.

This is what you are suggesting.

Druid has 4 mastery sets, other classes have 3. Feral has been tank/DPS since beta as well. So that is a total of 31 mastery sets. Three per class plus one extra druid one, for something that has been in game since beta.

Your idea adds 9, one for each presence and tree. This brings the total to 40. With 9 being for 1 class. That is crazy, the amount of time that would have to be devoted to balancing it would be ridiculous. That is 22.5% of the mastery sets being devoted to one class.

Mastery doesn't change how a spell works it changes some mechanics, adds power or adds flavor for a certain spec/role. Your idea ignores the idea of mastery. As if a spec is to be a tank, for any raid or serious content, it needs the base tank mastery boosts not just little things like making BB do different things based on presence.

Your idea is not taking a page from feral it is using currently viable work a rounds to achieve a result when the method wont be an option in Cata.

I know you hate the blood is tank tree thing and I feel for you but if you want to propose a solution you would have to look at it in terms of how things will change and not with current mechanics and methodologies.

From what I understand in Cata frost presence alone will give crit immunity so there is a very likely chance that you will be able to tank regular 5 mans and heroic versions as frost or unholy.

For what it is worth I appreciate people having a strong passion about a game or a certain play style they love and wanting to try to make it still work.
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#5 Apr 11 2010 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
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In an ideal world, my DK could keep the DPS/tank hybrid trees.

Also in that ideal world I would be living on a 40' sloop in the lower Pacific. But that's for another thread.

You forget one, absolutely vital ingredient to the mess of current DK balancing: The abilities.

Bears have Swipe and Mutilate to share with kitty but Lacerate and !Maul are bear-only. Just like Rip and Claw etc are kitty-only. This makes each set of abilities available to independent number tweaking as needed to balance them. Have threat problems? Adjust the AP coefficient on !Maul. Need more DPS throughput? Rip could use a tiny buff... etc.

DKs have exactly the same spells for DPS or tanking. The dev team currently has to balance all three trees, with all the same abilities, for both roles. Making all these spells vary depending on presence only magnifies this problem.

And let's not mention PVP "balancing", thank you.

If DKs could only use, say, Icy Touch in frost presence, then I'd be right on board. But I can't really blame the dev team for finally accepting the fact that so much of their precious time is being soaked up by this incredibly difficult DK balancing problem and they need to move on. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses. Sadly, this time around it was the DK hybrid-ability that got cut. (and fury's Whirlwind, WHY BLIZZARD WHY???)

=)
#6 Apr 11 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
Kizmeiz with the words of wisdom as always.
#7 Apr 12 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe that's what they could do to retain the balance yet still allow multiple trees to tank is take a page from Feral Druids and Warriors, allow certain abilities to only be used in certain presences/ balanced around their specific purpose.

Like giving DPS DK's and Tanking DK's different abilities Icy Touch = DPS and a new one let's say Frost Touch = Tanking, or another semi-equivalent that would allow tanks to apply diseases but not do as much damage with the ability that applies them but causes more threat or does the same but causes more threat. In other words mimick the mechanic we know and they know works with the other tanking classes.

I'm not mad that they are taking away the viability of Frost and Unholy to tank, I'm upset because they are taking away the viability of Blood to DPS.

I'm all for doing what's best for the game, and if that happens to be making DK's have a single tanking tree, thats fine, but not until after they've exhausted the alternatives.
#8 Apr 12 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
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As others have said, forms are a big deal.

The thing with feral is that Blizz essentially has two trees in one, realistically. Talents never function for both specs (Cat/Tank) at the same time. Even most (if not all--can't remember) of the talent-abilities have different functions for the two specs (even if only slightly different--such as the damage they do, CD, what-have-you).

As a result, since Blizzard has configured the tree so that almost none of the talents function at all times (Survival of the Fittest and the armor one?), they never have to worry about how changing a talent will affect the other spec. They are perfectly free to double the CD of cat mangle without changing Bear's.

This is NOT the case with DKs, and to make it so would take a LOT of work. Our presences in no way change the state of our class, they just buff our state. Your rotation doesn't change if you are in Blood vs. Unholy Presence, you just get a different benefit (namely, faster auto-attacks and rune CDs vs. More damage universally and self-healing).

So, they would need to make almost every talent in every tree function based on Presence. That's SO much work, and (in the end) only relieves them of having to worry about how DpS changes would affect tanks and vice versa. It doesn't relieve them of having to A. balance all three trees with each other and B. balance those three on a level equal with other tanks.

And that's the problem, not mastery. It's just too hard to balance (what is essentially) 6 tanking specs. Sure, you only eliminate two, but that also cancels out a DpS class.

I don't blame them for losing hybridization. If they had kept the tank spec as Frost or Unholy and added something interesting (and hadn't changed the rune system), I would consider sticking with the class into Cata.

Quote:
By your design all 3 DK trees would have to have 3 sets of mastery focuses that vary based on presence.

So DKs get 9 different masteries they have to balance.


To be fair, they'd probably keep Unholy/Blood together, but your point stands.

If Blizz WERE to do this, I'd actually vote that they decide your mastery based on whether or not you took the crit-immune talent. There's just no reason you need to ensure that someone with a tank spec can gain access to a DpS mastery. It may be nice at times, sure, like if you do end up DpSing for some reason. But I hardly think DKs should be entitled to it (for the same reason I don't accept the Class X has it, Class Y should too argument). You specced to tank, you tank.

Edited, Apr 12th 2010 12:07pm by idiggory
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