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Blood will be the ONLY Tank SpecFollow

#27 Apr 08 2010 at 7:08 PM Rating: Good
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Death Knight preview is up. I give it an official rating of: meh.

Quote:
World of Warcraft: Cataclysm will bring with it several changes to class talents and abilities. In this preview, you'll get a glimpse at some of the new abilities, spells, and talents in store for the death knight class, along with an early look at some improvements we plan to make to the rune resource system.

New Death Knight Abilities

Outbreak (level 81): Outbreak infects the target with both Frost Fever and Blood Plague at no rune cost. This ability allows death knights to apply diseases quickly when they are switching targets or when their diseases have been dispelled.

Necrotic Strike (level 83): Necrotic Strike is a new attack that deals weapon damage and applies a debuff that absorbs an amount of healing based on the damage done. For context, imagine that the death knight can choose between doing 8,000 damage outright with a certain ability, or dealing 6,000 damage and absorbing 4,000 points in incoming heals with Necrotic Strike -- the burst is smaller, but a larger overall amount of healing would be required to bring the target back to full health.

This ability is meant to bring back some of the old flavor from when death knights could dispel heal-over-time (HoT) effects. It also gives the class a bit more PvP utility without simply replicating a Mortal Strike-style effect.

Dark Simulacrum (level 85): The death knight strikes a target, applying a debuff that allows the death knight to copy the opponent's next spell cast and unleash it. Unlike Spell Reflection, Dark Simulacrum does not cancel the incoming spell. In general, if you can't reflect an ability, you won't be able to copy it either.

Rune System Changes

While we're satisfied with the way the rune system works overall, we're making a few major changes to the mechanics that will ultimately help death knight players feel less constrained. Here's the rationale behind the changes, followed by an explanation of how the new system will work.


* In the current rune system, any time a rune is sitting idle, death knights are losing out on potential damage output. By comparison, rogues spend most of their time at low energy levels, and if they're unable to use their skills for a few seconds, that energy builds up and can be spent later, minimizing the net loss from the interruption.

* A death knight's runes, on the other hand, cannot be used until they are fully active. If a death knight ever goes more than a few seconds without spending an available rune, that resource is essentially wasted. Because the death knight is pushing buttons constantly, it can be difficult to add new mechanics to the class because the player doesn't have any free global cooldowns to use them. We can't grant extra resources or reduced cost, because there is no time to spend them. Missing an attack is devastating, and it's impossible to save resources for when they're most useful.

* Additionally, each individual death knight ability has a fairly low impact on its own, making it feel like most of the death knight's attacks are weak. The death knight's rotations are also more easily affected by latency or a player's timing being just a little off. At times, it feels like death knights aren't able to take advantage of their unique resource mechanic, which can diminish the fun.

* The new rune system will change how runes regenerate, from filling simultaneously to filling sequentially. For example, if you use two Blood runes, then the first rune will fill up before the second one starts to fill up. Essentially, you have three sets of runes filling every 10 seconds instead of six individual runes filling every 10 seconds. (Haste will cause runes to fill faster.) Another way to think of this is having three runes that go up to 200% each (allowing extra "storage"), rather than six runes that go up to 100% each.

* As this is a major change to the death knight's mechanics, it will of course require us to retune many of the class's current abilities. For example, each ability needs to hit harder or otherwise be more meaningful since the death knight is getting fewer resources per unit of time. Some abilities will need to have their costs reduced as a result.


Talent Changes

Next we'll outline some of the death knight talent-tree changes we're planning in Cataclysm. This list is by no means comprehensive, but it should give you a sense of how we're intending each death knight spec to perform.


* One of the biggest changes we're making is converting Blood into a dedicated tanking tree. While we feel that having three tanking trees was successful overall, it's less necessary in a world with dual-specialization. In addition, the current breakdown isn't as compatible with the Mastery-based passive talent-tree bonuses we want to add (see below). We'd rather spend time tweaking and balancing one good tanking tree rather than having a tank always wondering if they picked the "correct" tree out of three possibilities.

* Blood seemed like the best fit for tanking. Unholy has always had a strong niche with diseases, magic, and command over pets. Frost now feels like a solid dual-wield tree with Frost magic damage and decent crowd control. Blood's niche was self-healing -- fitting for a tank -- as well as strong weapon swings, which could easily be migrated to Frost and Unholy.

* Our plan is to move the most interesting and fun tanking talents and abilities to Blood. For example, you will likely see Vampiric Blood and Will of the Necropolis remain, while Bone Shield will move over from Unholy.


Mastery Passive Talent Tree Bonuses

Blood
Damage reduction
Vengeance
Healing Absorption

Frost
Melee damage
Melee Haste
Runic Power Generation

Unholy
Melee damage
Melee and spell critical damage
Disease Damage

Healing Absorption: When you heal yourself, you'll receive an additional effect that absorbs incoming damage.

Runic Power Generation: This will function as the name implies, and the new rune system will make generating Runic Power more appealing.

Disease Damage: Unholy death knights will be able to get more out of their diseases, which are integral to the tree's play style.

Vengeance: This new mechanic is designed to ensure that tank damage output (and therefore threat) doesn't fall behind as damage-dealing classes improve their gear during the course of the expansion. All tanking specs will have Vengeance as their second talent tree passive bonus. Whenever a tank gets hit, Vengeance will grant a stacking Attack Power buff equal to 5% of the damage done, up to a maximum of 10% of the character's unbuffed health. For boss encounters, we expect that tanks will always have an Attack Power bonus equal to 10% of their health. The 5% and 10% bonuses assume 51 talent points have been put into the Blood tree; these values will be smaller at lower levels.

You only get the Vengeance bonus if you have spent the most talent points in the Blood tree, so you won't see Frost or Unholy death knights running around with it. Vengeance will let us continue to design tank gear more or less the way we do today; there will be some damage-dealing stats, but mostly survival-oriented stats. Druids typically have more damage-dealing stats even on their tanking gear, so their Vengeance benefit may be smaller, but the goal is that all four tanks will do about the same damage when tanking.

We hope you enjoyed this preview, and we're looking forward to hearing your thoughts and feedback on these additions and changes. Please keep in mind that this information represents a work in progress and is subject to change as development on Cataclysm continues.
#28 Apr 08 2010 at 7:19 PM Rating: Good
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After thinking about it a bit (and a big lunch)... it does seem a little odd that Blood would be the tanking tree when it seemed so obvious in beta that Frost had the particular "tank flavor" even after all the changes it saw before live beta and after. It's just always had that prot-y aftertaste. But I have to suppose that the physical damage focus of Blood is (for lack of a better word) "easier" to balance as a tank spec than the mix of issues that is Frost (phy. and magical damage, 2-hand and dual-wield, etc).

Of course, I felt the same bewilderment when I found out dual-wielding was going to be Frost based rather than Unholy, where it makes far more sense to me.

Anyway, with the information we have now it's clear that it's Tank = Blood, DW = Frost, 2-hander = Unholy.

Now back to reading the river of QQ in the warrior changes thread... omg these people have taken ******** to an art form!

EDIT:

Quote:
As this is a major change to the death knight's mechanics, it will of course require us to retune many of the class's current abilities.


LOLOLOLOLOL

What's that? You have to completely rework our mechanics again? What a SHOCKER!

Edited, Apr 8th 2010 6:24pm by TherionSaysWhat
#29 Apr 08 2010 at 7:38 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah... looks like I'm done with the DK.

It doesn't feel like they are changing anything in a positive way. You'd think, when they go ahead and say they are going to change Blood to be a dedicated tanking tree, they'd tell us some of what they planned. If it is just Blood + UA + BS, it'll be LAME. And a lot of DpS Unholy DKs are gonna be pissed. :P

No interesting new abilities for non-PvPers (not that the PvP ones are so great either). And our tree bonuses are so BORING. Some classes, like Shadow Priests, got some really cool ones. Ours are just a +% damage, or +% RP. :/ That's not interesting at all.

And the new system for runes doesn't really seem better. At all. It frankly seems stupid to me (sorry for being so pessimistic, but it's the response I get). Part of any class is keeping a tight rotation. And a lot of DK rotations were fairly open at higher gear levels, such as when Unholy uses 3 SSs instead of 2. And if the "power up" isn't proportional, that's just going to make the DK annoyingly complicated (must not use your Unholy runes until they are at exactly 150%, but Blood runes can be used at 117%!)
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#30 Apr 08 2010 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Until I more clearly understand how the rune resource mechanic will actually function, I'm on the fence. But from the short description I can only say no thank you. We've been through a lot of changes and I'm kinda in the same boat. Thing is, I don't want to be pessimistic. But after reading the preview... meh.



And what's not to be excited about more RP gen!!?? In a tree that bleeds RP so much they had to add a talent to increase the resource pool so we weren't always capped?

GET EXCITED ABOUT RP GEN, DAMMIT!!!!! It's RP... you get more, faster! HUZZAH!


But, yeah, nothing in there that's making me not want to play my warrior (LEEEEAP!) and my shaman (AOE HoT in yo face!) more to be honest. Really looking forward to the druid preview too, kinda diggin that class at the moment.
#31REDACTED, Posted: Apr 08 2010 at 7:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes, because this change makes so much sense...
#32 Apr 08 2010 at 8:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The new rune system will change how runes regenerate, from filling simultaneously to filling sequentially. For example, if you use two Blood runes, then the first rune will fill up before the second one starts to fill up. Essentially, you have three sets of runes filling every 10 seconds instead of six individual runes filling every 10 seconds. (Haste will cause runes to fill faster.) Another way to think of this is having three runes that go up to 200% each (allowing extra "storage"), rather than six runes that go up to 100% each.


Yeah, sorry, you lost me at:

Quote:
if you use two Blood runes, then the first rune will fill up before the second one starts to fill up


Goodbye Death Knight. I wish I could say I would be rolling a Warrior instead, but looks like Fury Warriors are getting pwned as well. What's next on the list? Maybe I'll go back to my Druid.
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#33 Apr 08 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Dilbrt wrote:
ekaterinodar wrote:
Again yet another failed argument.

I'm actually gonna give you this one, there really isn't any valid comparison for a class that can potentially have 6 different playstyles that has had it reduced to 3. Even Druid making feral only tanking wouldn't be a fair comparison, because then you'd be eliminating the ability to be melee dps, and DKs can still be melee dps, just not as blood. I still think you are being really inflexible about it though.


Actually its more like saying "Okay feral druids, if you want to tank you're going to need to roll Panzerkin. If you want to DPS you're going to have to go solely feral.

The three tanking styles may have similarities but in actual play have completely different feels. I'm trying really hard to like the change. I was looking forward to hearing some of their spectacular ideas for DKs but their post really just left me with more concerns. Looking at the other classes I can go "Wow, that looks cool. I can't wait to try that out." As for the DKs its just...bland.

I apologize for getting nasty about it. Its just I REALLY enjoy my frost tank and am really good at it. To find that I'm going to be forced to a play style I just can't stand...well my character is going to get a server transfer come cataclysm and put into "storage" unless they give us something spectacular.
#34 Apr 08 2010 at 9:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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About Frost/Unholy, I did some quick research on WoL.

Seems DW Frost and Unholy are about equal in DpS, with Blood being quite a bit behind.

And there was a clarification post:
Quote:
Here are a few points of clarification:

-We want to provide a 2-handed style for Frost since we recognize that pets are an acquired taste. We think we have the design space to do that now that we don’t need to support Frost tanking. We’re definitely committed to making Frost work as a dual-wield tree though -- that isn’t going away.
-Outbreak is free with a 1-minute cooldown. It’s not supposed to completely replace Plague Strike and Icy Touch.
-We’re not sure how we’re going to handle presences yet. We recognize the oddness of Blood death knights playing in Frost Presence and Frost death knights not playing in Frost Presences. We might rename the presences or take some other action.


Good that they'll make 2-hand Frost viable too, for the pet reasons I stated above.
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#35 Apr 09 2010 at 10:45 AM Rating: Decent
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DK's were the cool class to play be cause they could do both of the things they were meant to do (tank and DPS) in any spec they wanted, which meant that DK's had 6 different flavors rather than 3.

Mastery system screwed it up for us. Why can't they make make it a choice in the tree whether people want DPS Mastery buffs or DPS Mastery buffs.. like say have the first tier have 2 (or more) COMPLETELY different talents that would then indicate what mastery buffs the rest of the tree would get. Like.... Less threat talent vs a more threat talent or something else equally exclusive, that would then activate the "Tank" or "DPS" Mastery buffs, or make it so that you had to just plain choose, like check a box or somehthing and say "I want to tank" or "I want to DPS."

Anyway, I guess I'll be waiting to hear how they'll make Frost viable with 2 Handers before I really make a choice, but in the meantime I'll stick with what I like, Blood DPS and Frost tanking....

Which brings me to another, already brought up, but still mind boggling "WTF!?" moment.... presences.

BLOOD tank = FROST presence...? Frost DPS = Blood Presence...? Unholy Presence = what? PvP?

They need to change them... obviously they just needed to fit the awesome flexibility of the DK into the not so flexible Mastery system, which to me begs the question... wouldn't it be easier even from a design perspective to make the Mastery system a little more flexible rather than spending the next 1.5 years trying to balance a single class again?

Whatever, I'll still play when Cata comes out regardless of changes I just might be playing something else but having just as much fun.... GAME ON!
#36 Apr 09 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
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reposting what i said in general forums
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I really don't see how you guys can call the dk changes underwhelming.
I'll agree that the changes are really pvp-centric, so if you don't do pvp i get it, but well, let's face it, we're in a pretty good spot when it comes to pve...yet in pvp, not so much atm. (alot better now that we have disease protection though)

Basically, the biggest problems in pvp for a dk atm:

1) our damage, especially against better armoured targets, is not that impressive. or well, let me rephrase that.
our burst damage is not that good. the only thing that makes us do some sort of burst (though its really just a big boost in damage done) is gargoyle, which has an absolutely sh*tty ai, causing it to often just fly up and melee targets, not following targets out of los, and it can easily be countered by pallies and priests.

2)because of this, it's very hard for a dk to actually pressure a target. If you don't have ms a healer will out heal you no problem.
a holy paladin can out heal you by just spamming cleanse, holy shock and instant fol's. they don't need to cast at all.

summary? we lack burst, especially in wotlk pvp, burst is the name of the game, and we are sorely under performing in that place, imo.
We do bring excellent control with chains spam and our plethora of cd's, e.g. : death grip/amz/strang/ghoul stun/mf.

however, due to the rune system, which makes us use a strike every GCD, they cant increase our burst.
Instead of a warrior who has few, but hard hitting strikes, we strike way more often, thus each of them hitting way lower.

This rune system revamp will allow us to hit harder with individual strikes, thus increasing our burst.

The new outbreak skill is nice for a swap/cleanse, though, pestilence already covers the former.
necrotic strike is pretty sick, and is going to synergyize amazingly well with ms (maybe too well..)
and the semi-spell reflect, pretty bad *** too, though if there's one thing we didn't need it was more survivability against casters (imo)
#37 Apr 09 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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I really don't see how you guys can call the dk changes underwhelming.


Because the new rune system sounds like crap from a PvE perspective. I don't care about PvP at all. I'm losing my favorite tank spec and the system itself is being changed in a way that frankly seems stupid to me. Losing a GCD is a DpS loss for most class' specs--DKs aren't unique there.
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#38 Apr 11 2010 at 5:24 AM Rating: Good
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idiggory wrote:
Quote:
I really don't see how you guys can call the dk changes underwhelming.


Because the new rune system sounds like crap from a PvE perspective. I don't care about PvP at all. I'm losing my favorite tank spec and the system itself is being changed in a way that frankly seems stupid to me. Losing a GCD is a DpS loss for most class' specs--DKs aren't unique there.


Seeing as how the Frost mastery is RP generation I am guessing that the RP usage will be more integral to DPS rotations and as such the 'lost' GCDs will likely be tied up in that area. As it stands right now RP capping isn't a huge issue. I mean technically it is a DPS loss but it comes no where near not using runes.

I think the idea of RP dump will be gone. RP usage will be more important and things like casting DC on a target with UB will not be as lame as it is now.

Weaving RP usage into the rotation in a more active fashion is my prediction with Frost having stronger RP attacks comparatively, which plays into their mastery.

I think Cata will actually make all DKs use both resource systems more actively than in the current game.
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#39 Apr 11 2010 at 6:51 AM Rating: Good
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Just basing my assumptions on the fact that they said we will behave as a much slower class, like Warriors, tells me we are going to have many empty GCDs.

I'm assuming RP abilities will be strong, but costly.

I just have no interest in playing a really slow class. I get bored if I have to go long periods without doing anything.
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#40 Apr 11 2010 at 7:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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I really hope you all have been practicing your RP dump weaving techniques. You'll need them from the sound of things.

And as far as warriors playing "slow"... that's really only fury. Arms and prot are very active and based more on procs then the reliable fury rotation. Honestly, I felt more excitement and challenge from playing arms than I did from any of the DK specs. Now if only arms wasn't such a zomg threat! engine, I could reliably raid with it.


I'm still pretty bummed that they're moving all tanking to blood. But let's not forget that it wasn't just 6 specs to balance... it was 12 with PVP. I do not blame them for trying to simplify their dev cycle a bit.

Beside all this rune refresh hooplah, let's not overlook:

Quote:
Outbreak (level 81): Outbreak infects the target with both Frost Fever and Blood Plague at no rune cost. This ability allows death knights to apply diseases quickly when they are switching targets or when their diseases have been dispelled.


And why do we have IT/PS now? Insta-disease refresh from RP (or possibly even free?) sounds like we'll be moving right to our specs heavy hitting abilities earlier and more often in the new cycles.

I also have to wonder why they didn't mention death runes or the FU mechanic changes that the new rune system will require in any way. Avoiding the obvious quagmire of QQ and questions maybe?
#41 Apr 11 2010 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And why do we have IT/PS now? Insta-disease refresh from RP (or possibly even free?) sounds like we'll be moving right to our specs heavy hitting abilities earlier and more often in the new cycles.


It has a 2 min CD. It's really a PvP ability, or for cutting a small amount of rev up time on a boss.

[EDIT]

1 min, apparently. So it's really a PvP ability, with a very minor PvE buff.

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 11:22am by idiggory
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#42 Apr 11 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
It's funny how (almost) everyone that's complaining about the way DK specs are being changed hasn't even given the time to consider where all the appropriate cross-tree talents are going to be moved to yet. So what if Blood is going to be the Tank tree instead of Frost? Maybe, just maybe, all of the tank-oriented Frost Talents are going to be getting moved over, like Blizzard has suggested. So, short of Howling Blast, which is the end all and be all of the Frost tree, pretty much all the good tanking talents are going to be transferred.

I personally love the new changes. I tried speccing my DK tank 4 different ways (2h Frost, DW Frost, Blood with DnD Unholy CD, Blood without DnD CD) before hitting Northrend because schleps in my instances always had something to criticize about my spec. "I hate Frost Tanks." "DW Frost tanks don't get invites to my guild." "Blood tanking isn't good AOE threat." "I won't appreciate Frost tanking until I can see one out-tank my Blood DK on Phase 3 of Onyxia." I'm truly sick of the DK Tank hate across the board because there's so many people who fail at each one (and, granted, I've heard just as much hate about DK Tanks in general because so many people don't know what the Hell they're doing...WHY ARE SOME OF YOU PEOPLE WEARING MP5 GEAR?!) My main is an ICC Tankadin, and while I generally still have some stuff to learn about DK Tanking, I can't say I'm such an idiot that I couldn't figure out how to do it based on technique and positioning alone. Either spec should've done the job just fine, and they did, but it didn't stop the complaining from groupies. With the announcement...people won't be able to whine anymore about using uncommon (although just as effective) tanking specs, because there will be a single dedicated Tanking tree.

And I like that DW Frost is becoming a primary DPS spec. My DK is DW Frost right now and is always top of the charts with like-geared people (I consistently out-DPS'd Blood DKs that were 80 [before I was] by around 500-1000dps...though I'll give credit to the possibility that these people just don't know WTF they're doing.) Come Cata, it might be by an even larger margin.

To me, this change is as much a needed overhaul as the Paladin system was back in the day, back when Judging still consumed Seals and pally DPS was lovingly called LOLRET. DKs really need this. I'm tired of grouping with people who spec Tank talents so they can DPS, and vice versa.
#43 Apr 11 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's funny how (almost) everyone that's complaining about the way DK specs are being changed hasn't even given the time to consider where all the appropriate cross-tree talents are going to be moved to yet.


That is completely irrelevent. Our issue isn't losing a single ability. Plus, Blizz said Bone Shield was going to Blood.

The problem we have is that our playstyle is disappearing completely. Like you said, Howling Blast isn't moving. That was a spec-defining skill for Frost tanks.

It's like saying people shouldn't care if Blizz made Unholy the tank tree, because they gave Blood Unholy Blight. It just doesn't make any difference--we're still forced into a spec we don't like.
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#44 Apr 11 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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idiggory wrote:
It's like saying people shouldn't care if Blizz made Unholy the tank tree, because they gave Blood Unholy Blight. It just doesn't make any difference--we're still forced into a spec we don't like.

Except that you don't actually know what that spec is yet. It's possible that they'll radically change the playstyle of Blood into something you do like, but you guys are clinging so desperately to the current Frost specs that you refuse to even consider what Blood could be in the future.
#45 Apr 11 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Good
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Except that you don't actually know what that spec is yet. It's possible that they'll radically change the playstyle of Blood into something you do like, but you guys are clinging so desperately to the current Frost specs that you refuse to even consider what Blood could be in the future.


The thing I don't like about Blood is the self-healing dynamic.
Blizzard said the self-healing dynamic remains, and is why they chose this tree as the tanking one.
Ergo, the thing I don't like about Blood continues.
So I won't like Blood tanking.

Pretty simple.

[EDIT]

And my DK tank is Unholy.

Edited, Apr 11th 2010 4:06pm by idiggory
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#46 Apr 11 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
I guess if you rolled a DK to exclusively be blood dps or a frost tank, I can understand why you'd be upset. That'd be like rolling a hunter to be BM in a raid (great in BC, not so much now). Pretty much your only choices are adapt (and if you have little trouble adapting now you'll have little trouble next time) or reroll. I guess you can quit too, but there really aren't any better games out there, so even if you quit, you'd be back.
#47 Apr 11 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Dill, have you always lived in Savannah? I never noticed that before...

I've been wanting to check out that city for a long time. Ever since I read Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil...

And sorry for the stupidly off-topic post.

Now, as to the content of your post...

I rolled a DK to tank--I knew that's what I wanted to do from the start. I got the fun of designing the best-threat rotations, but also the fun that comes with tanking. To me, it was the best of both worlds, and I just never really was interested in DK DpS (and I honestly have no clue why, I'm just not).

I leveled as Blood for a long while. I thought it was okay, but knew it wasn't really for me. I liked that I didn't have downtime when soloing, but self-healing just didn't interest me NEARLY as much as the Frost or Unholy play styles/tree types.

So, it isn't that I leveled to specifically be a Frost tank or Unholy tank, I just leveled with that in mind. And I found I just wasn't partial to one spec, but really enjoyed the two others (Unholy more than Frost, but kinda irrelevant). To be fair, it could just as easily have been different, and I could have loved Unholy and Blood tanking (maybe DnD excited me) and they could have chosen Frost to be the tank spec. It just so happens that I'm not interested in the direction the class has taken.

My only point is that it is perfectly understandable for people to be upset, and to abandon the class. If the reason they loved the class just disappears, are they supposed to stick with it for some other reason? I'm not saying this is contrary to what you said Dill (and I suspect we are on a similar level) you just made me think of it.

And honestly, I do think Blizz knows this (GC has been very understanding of the DK's sorrows). This change, specifically, just boiled down to it being too much for them to handle. I understand that, and don't blame them per se (I'm pissy they didn't choose Frost, but that's not something I can say they did wrong. Just a contrary opinion).
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#48 Apr 12 2010 at 5:43 AM Rating: Good
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Dilbrt wrote:
I guess if you rolled a DK to exclusively be blood dps or a frost tank, I can understand why you'd be upset. That'd be like rolling a hunter to be BM in a raid (great in BC, not so much now). Pretty much your only choices are adapt (and if you have little trouble adapting now you'll have little trouble next time) or reroll. I guess you can quit too, but there really aren't any better games out there, so even if you quit, you'd be back.


More like rolling a Holy Paladin, thinking you'd heal, only to have them roll the healing abilities into the Retribution tree and making Holy the new DPS tree. You could just go Ret and still be able to heal, but it just wouldn't be the same...
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#49 Apr 12 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I will admit to being upset about the DK changes, extremely so actually. One of the main reasons people played the class was because they could do whatever they wanted in whatever spec they wanted (well, could tank as any of the three tree anyway, still had cookie cutter DPS/ Tank spec for each). Now that fundamental draw to the class is going away and people will be forced to play what Blizzard says they need to play to do that job.

I love Blood DPS, it's how I personally think a DK would DPS, suck the life out of their opponents feeding their own causing a Blood Frenzy (Hysteria) with control over Bloodsucking leeches, although a mix of frost and unholy is also in there. And Frost tanking or at least the idea behind it, of layering yourself in ice to prevent damage while draining your enemies attack speed and being able to blast everyone around you with freezing wind to damage and slow everything.... not to mention the tanking presence is and will still be FROST presence...

So my playstyles for favorite class are just disappearing. I don't like DPS'ing as Unholy (I prefer a 2 Hand build)...tried it and hated it and I don't like tanking as Blood...again tried and hated it, but I don't know how things will be in Cataclysm so I won't say I'll quit, but I don't think I'll be as excited about playing a DK as I was before. It will also depend on how they build the trees, maybe they will make up for this with new Frost and Unholy builds.

I guess my main reason for being so upset about the changes is that I don't think Blizzard really thought them through. for tanking classes, the stance/ form you're in dictates what you want to do right? Druid = Bear/ Feral, Warrior = Defensive/ Protection, Paladin = Retribution/ Protection (yeah this one's weird too) and DK's = Frost..... which means that even now Blizzard feels that frost = tank, so why are they making Blood the tank tree when blood presence is still the DPS presence? It doesn't make any sense and just feels wrong and the fact that I can't wrap my brain around their decision when all current data points a different direction just upsets me.

I'm guessing they went with blood to add a new flavor for tanking in general since the other tanking classes already have the damage decreasing abilties and avoidance thing covered, while DK's will be avoidance and self healing.
#50 Apr 12 2010 at 9:31 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
So my playstyles for favorite class are just disappearing. I don't like DPS'ing as Unholy (I prefer a 2 Hand build)...tried it and hated it and I don't like tanking as Blood...again tried and hated it, but I don't know how things will be in Cataclysm so I won't say I'll quit, but I don't think I'll be as excited about playing a DK as I was before. It will also depend on how they build the trees, maybe they will make up for this with new Frost and Unholy builds.


I don't know if this is a typo or not, but I figured I'd throw this out there just in case it is...

DW Unholy is dead--it's a 2-hand build now.

That could have been a typo where you meant Frost, but just figured I'd let you know in case you want to try 2hd Unholy.
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#51 Apr 12 2010 at 11:32 AM Rating: Decent
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I meant that I didn't include Frost because I knew it was DW and that I would only consider Unholy because I knew it was a 2H. Thanks for clarifying though.
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