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Awesome post Rod, I giggled a lot there.

That said - I know your pain. The problem generally is that in one 5-man group, one or two people want to slack while the rest wants to give it all they've got and push through in as little time as possible. If the tank is pulling like a maniac and you want to take it slow, you do have a problem.

Who has right of way depends on the situation, though. In most cases, if you get stuck with a tank with a broken autorun button, you'll have to throw out a message if you want to slow him down. Generally you shouldn't have too much of a problem with keeping your mana up, but it can get quite tedious if you've got a T10.5 tank while you've barely dinged 80. Call people out on this and like you just said, tell them you're supposed to be working as a group (which means that if you speed up your drinking a bit and he slows down his pulling a bit, you should meet eachother halfway). If they still decide on being an ******* after that... well, that's up to you. =P

Ummm....

As an overgeared tank I wold say your job is to keep up, if you need mana I will gibe you mana via Innervate. If you need more mana than that I will get cranky. I am a druid tank and can give you mana so that is cheating. Yes, I will hit buttons, pop out of bear, give you mana and then resume tanking stuff without saying a word.

Many tanks that do LFG are in the same boat. If I used my real tank gear I could do a heroic with an off healer and be fine. I use my DPS gear, druids can do this easier than others. Has a lot to do with armor scaling and bear form, plus redonkulous dodge, crit and ArP in bear form for lulz DPS, insane SD uptime and crazy dodge streaks coupled with some self healing via ILotP every 6 seconds.

Honestly, if you get a tank like that stop healing the DPS and see what happens. If they behave and you just have a tank and splash damage to heal you should not have an issue even if moving non-stop. If that is not the case then the death of DPS will slow the tank down as he will realize he can't keep aggro on all the mobs. If that is still not the case you are dealing with idiots and should leave.

You have way better gear than I did when I hit 80 on my priest. Honestly, you should be working on your DPS in heroics. Your Disco man, Shield FTW.


edit: Sometimes you will meet tanks that think they are, "The hawt sh*t", that aren't you will have to work then or let them die until they realize they suck. I had less gear than you when I hit 80 and no issue with run-run tanks if they could hold aggro on everything.


edit2: Shield spam ,PoM and Renew are your friends.

Edited, Mar 15th 2010 5:16am by Horsemouth

TBH, you really shouldn't have to sit and drink in a 5 man heroic with a geared tank at your gear level.

I have died because of LoS before but it was because of mob push back and me and the healer both being cocky. I didn't blame the healer at all. We laughed about it, I knew I got LoS'd when it happened. It was a few months ago in H UK when I pulled the whole room with the dragons. The DPS were a little salty but me and the healer laughed it up.

A good tank will rarely LoS a healer unless they have all their CDs to push and if that is the case then who cares.

Also, If I have to wait for a healer to drink when I wear my tank gear I get really annoyed, pushing 50k with priest buffs in a 5 man with over 50% dodge, *** loads of armor and having to wait for mana is insane. As I could easily replace you with 2 Ret pally's judging Light. H HoR/PoS excluded of course.

A mage or any other DPS can easily drink and GASP not charge into the pull, it gives the tank time to get aggro with out worrying about over zealous DPS. I as a tank like that to be honest. That time will let you shield and, stand there for a while doing nothing but gaining OF5SR mana gains.

Also your freaking Disco if you have to drink in a non-H HoR/PoS 5 man either; your tank sucks, you aren't letting stupid DPS die or you have issues.

This is my Disco priest. I don't know what mana is in a 5 man. I heal everyone and push 1k DPS. In H HoR I heal everyone and Shackle stuff instead and, in H PoS I heal and conserve as people can be dumb a LOT in that one, fricking hill makes groups stupid sometimes.

I WILL NEVER WAIT FOR CASTER DPS TO DRINK.

Edited, Mar 15th 2010 6:07am by Horsemouth

Cool mate, you make some good points and your entitled to voice your opinion.
To me a good tank waits for everyone, not just the healer, so we agree to disagree.
Again mana isnt really the issue for me, just the range and los.
You mentioned being cocky before, I really dont think as a tank your alone there.
And your right most 5 mans are a piece of cake except the new 3 in Icecrown, FoS being one I mentioned before.
And yes I'am new to heals in a group, I have a whopping 3 weeks experience at it so yes I do fall into the nub catergory for now.
But I've played enough over the years to know what the go is, you just cant tell some people.
The beauty of having players from other realms in your groups these days is instead of just getting stuck with the nubs on your own realm you now cop everyone elses.

Edited, Mar 15th 2010 11:33am by RodStorm

All good mate, I've never had a Druid so I really dont know how they work.
And yes when push comes to shove and things look bleek then its just going to be me and the tank and I'll rez the rest later.
This was/is a tongue in cheek good humour thread that wasnt meant to be taken to seriously so sorry if anyone felt offended.
Just a personal observation with a bit of humour chucked in for good measure :)

I dunno, Horse, I think based on what you're saying here that it's possible you're kind of a harsh tank. Not bad-harsh, more sir-yes-sir-harsh. You can still have cookies, obvii.

Rod, funny post, extra credit for use of the word "knob."

I would be cranky about the kind of tank you're talking about. (Not you Horse, I'm referring to the Knob. I know Horse is a fine fine tank and I love it when druid tanks throw their Innervates on me.) As a healer, I do not act like a diva. I won't tolerate my tank acting like a diva, either. In the immortal words of Jeff Spicoli, if I'm here, and you're here, this is our time. A tank should be able to expect and insist on a competent healer. But he doesn't have an inalienable right to a twelve minute heroic. If you're so marvelous and special and wonderful and heroics are just, like, so beneath you and your marvelous special wonderful gear, then run with others who are similarly marvelously specially wonderfully geared. But if you choose to PUG, and the healer is out of mana, and you tell them to keep up or **** off? You're the same guy who thinks it's okay to cut people off in traffic because you honestly think that your time is more important than them or their personal safety, aren't you? The answer in both cases is the same: enjoy your repair bill. Because I am not moving for your arrogant ***.

My advice is as follows:

1. Make sure you are healing in an efficient way so as to not unduly hold people up. Get Recount and look at your overhealing; it may help you see whether you are casting when you don't have to. One of the hardest things for a healer to do, IMO, is know when to do nothing. As Aethien mentions, go to your own mana tricks first before stopping to drink. Shadowfiend, Hymn, etc.

2. If the DPS is causing you to OOM because they're stupid, politely call their attention to it. If that doesn't work, call their attention to it less politely. If that still doesn't work, laugh at their corpses and refuse to res them.

3. If none of the above apply and the tank still insists on running ahead when you've asked for a drink, then he deserves what he gets.

4. When you find a good tank, cherish him forever. Keep him happy, and make yourself his favorite healer. Run with him as often as you can.


Edited, Mar 15th 2010 11:59am by teacake

Hi Rod, You're right in that some groups rush quite a bit. I love being topped off in my mana. I carry a lot of water with me and will take short drinks often. When the tank is moving on, I'll stop drinking and get going. Here's a couple of my tips:

1. Short drinks often. You don't have to finish the whole canteen.
2. You have a shadow fiend. He returns a lot of mana. Pick a time when the mobs aren't going to all die in 3 seconds and send in the fiend.
3. You can cast Hymn in combat. When everyone is shielded, cast it if you are low.
4. Drink during the start of combat. You're disc, so pre-shield everyone, PoM and renew tank, then sit and drink. When combat starts, you're sitting there having a nice glass watching the show. Often you can drink until your mana is completely full before you need to get up and do anything.

The only time I could see me asking for a mana break is if it was a near wipe, and they have drained 30k mana.

Lastly, I know you are working on your engineering. When you level it a little higher, catching up to the tank with your Rocket Boosts is just plain fun.

I, like horse, play both a healer and a tank.

As a healer, my mana regen is high enough to rarely (if ever) drink. As Disc, you should be having even fewer mana issues than a Holy priest. That'd be the first thing I'd look at, make sure your mana regen is commensurate w/ your gear level.

Assuming it is or you can fix it, if you're still having mana problems in heroics...you're healing too much. Either you're casting heals when they aren't needed, or you have the good fortune of always finding aggro ***** dps and are not letting them die. Either way, when you're about to cast a spell on anything other than the tank (and even sometimes then), ask yourself whether you REALLY need to cast that in your head before the cast finishes. Be prepared to cancel unnecessary spells.

Check your spec to make sure you have all the mana regen talents you need. (Rapture, Meditation, etc.)

Really...you shouldn't need to drink in heroics...virtually ever. I can understand that some tanks just don't ever stop and pull stupid amounts of mobs at once, but considering how boring it is for healers in heroics these days...think of it as a challenge, show em all how leet you are. :P

As a Holy priest, taking Body and Soul often lets me catch up to the tank. Sometimes I even cast it on the tank if I'm ahead of them. :P

Another trick: After the pull, move to the "far" side of the fight...past the tank and melee (but not out of range of the ranged deeps) to do your healing. This way, after combat if you need to drink...you do it immediately and are closer to the next pull. Just be sure not to aggro additional mobs. Be smart.

When I tank, I don't stop much. I'll only stop if I'm rage starved or to pop out of bear and cast an innervate on the healer. 90% of the reason I move so quickly is to outpace the dps. If I get there early I can get larger groups and get solid aggro on all of them before the Bladelol Warriors and Ret-arded Pallies do their aoe aggro whoring. This means less death and a faster run. 99% of the time, I'm doing my Frost Emblem daily before work and want to be done in 15-20 minutes max.

Edit: I just looked at your spec/glyphs. They look fine. Do you cast Holy Nova a lot? That spell is a huge mana drain...just sayin'. You could go Flash Heal for a while and try to snipe dps w/ FH for more efficiency. Save Holy Nova for the appropriate times in raids maybe.



Edited, Mar 20th 2010 1:57pm by margeux

Oookie dookie....this one is still going....yes I did mention stopping to drink and a lot of people seem to be clinging to that comment.
Yes I sip from time to time but overall mana regen is not an issue.
The other thing I mentioned, a lot now, is los.
If your a tank and out of range I cant heal you, if your around a corner your out of los, if your a mile down the road and around a corner your going to die.
So I dont know how many times now I've mentioned that but it keeps getting overlooked, no one seems to be clinging to that statement.
Maybe because its easier for a tank to blame the heals if it goes all pear shaped, gee thats never happened before.
I ran H UK the other night where the tank was up to the next mob whilst the dps were still fighting the first mob, its hard to heal two fights going on when people are out of range.
I'am not talking side by side mobs, I'am talking mobs down the road and around the corner.
And yes the tank did get a mouthful, not from me but from everyone else.
No one has yet answered the simple question, why does a tank need to run through an instance as fast as he can?
If its that much of a chore then dont do it, pretty simple really.
I actually enjoy running instances but I'am amazed now with the cross realm groups how many bosses are skipped in an effort to get the instance done.
It takes away from enjoying the game, we play for fun and enjoyment right?

ps..and for the record I love daylight savings, wish we had it here.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2010 11:03am by RodStorm

If the tank runs out of your LOS once, and it's a mistake, fine. If he does it multiple times, purposely let that idiot die as many times as possible. You owe it to the WoW community to make tanking so frustrating for him that he stops doing it.

The rushing is a factor of differing goals in the instance. For some people, gearing up as fast as possible is the fun, and the content is just the price they have to pay to get there. I don't like playing that way either. Unfortunately, the only answer I've found is to just PUG as seldom as possible. There's too much of that out there for the odds of me enjoying playing with randoms to be high. If I wanted to do more PVE again, I'd find a guild of like-minded people. I'd transfer servers if I had to. The difference between pugging and playing with people you enjoy playing with is just too huge to pass up.

Yeah, I'm almost at my 6th 80 now and I've pretty much geared up all of them by chainrunning heroics.
I've done all of the heroics so often that I don't like seeing them ever again, but I have to if I want the gear to do what I enjoy.
And I'm not the only one in this position, almost every raider is being forced to run 1 heroic on each character they take seriously each day.
It's an annoying thing you have to do to keep up with gearing up.

And since tanks get instant queues they pretty much decide what happens.
Healers can speak up and have their say, but dps are pretty much screwed.
Not fun, but if you want to ***** at anyone, ***** at Blizzard for forcing this on everyone.
WotLK is the expansion of running everything ten million times, then doing it again for good measure.

I actually agree with this, I only do the one a day myself for the frosty badge these days but if someone wants a hand in a heroic I'll give it to them.
Or if I'am trying out a new heals idea or have changed some buttons around its a good place to try things out.
But I do know of some people who wont raid and only do heroics as thats what thier happy to do so each to thier own.
I still dont mind running them though, I dont see it as a chore.
Maybe I'am not hardcore enough I dont know.
Now if I wanted to open another can of worms I could mention how the achieve system has killed the game....but I wont :)

Lack of desire to run heroics is precisely why I don't take any character seriously, even my main. I just want to goof off. I don't want it to feel like work.