Its fine.
The impact will affect us less. Mainly as we only fight Dodge DRs and this will cause less Agi stacking. Also we have better Stam and Armor scaling which is where we will be going after this change.
I will switch many agi/stam gems to all stam. I will maybe use some stam chants over agi. My dodge will not shift as much. My armor will drop as will crit but...
The increased stam will more than make up for it. That and new gear with better armor that we scale better with, much like the stam.
If any thing this radiance will maybe force Blizz to nerf our scaling.
So calm down and don't worry. Icecrown Radiance is fine.
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Icecrown Radiance and the bear tankFollow
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Do you think this will perhaps make Blood Draining preferable on our weapons as opposed to Mongoose?
Forgive my ignorance but just what IS "Icecrown Radiance"? I tried looking it up on google, the offical forums, wowwiki and, wowhead. I couldn't find anything spesific on it so I'm a bit confused.
It's actually called Chill of the Throne.
In Sunwell Plateau they added a buff called Sunwell Radiance to help alleviate the insane scaling tank avoidance was doing in the previous tiers. This way they didn't have to make the sunwell bosses themselves have obscene stats, they just globally nerfed tanks.
They're doing it again in Icecrown Citadel because tanks are already breaching 50% dodge in T9 gear, with 50k health pools. That can only go up further as people get gear from IC bosses on their way to Arthas.
In Sunwell Plateau they added a buff called Sunwell Radiance to help alleviate the insane scaling tank avoidance was doing in the previous tiers. This way they didn't have to make the sunwell bosses themselves have obscene stats, they just globally nerfed tanks.
They're doing it again in Icecrown Citadel because tanks are already breaching 50% dodge in T9 gear, with 50k health pools. That can only go up further as people get gear from IC bosses on their way to Arthas.
As far as I'm concerned this means less overlap between by bear and kitty sets... bummer.
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
someproteinguy wrote:
As far as I'm concerned this means less overlap between by bear and kitty sets... bummer.
Ya, I'm definitely going to be adding pure Stam gems to gear now. Shiftings for red sockets with decent bonuses but other wise a more Stam heavy set up.
Overlord Norellicus wrote:
Do you think this will perhaps make Blood Draining preferable on our weapons as opposed to Mongoose?
I'm still going to use Mongoose. A ~2k heal is fairly small and if I drop that low if something big isn't coming anyway I'm probably paste anyway. Plus I have bad luck with weapon drops so they usually get shared with kitty spec.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
This doesn't reduce the effectiveness of dodge in any way, so it should have very little if any affect on the way we gear. As one of the blues said "Nerfing dodge does not make the dodge stat worse. It only makes the amount of dodge on your dude worse. Would you stop stacking stamina if we nerfed your health?"
Someone on EJ's also pointed out :-
Someone on EJ's also pointed out :-
Quote:
The tanks with the least avoidance (eg. Bears) are the least affected by this change.
Going from 60% avoidance to 40% avoidance is a 50% increase in average incoming damage.
Going from 50% avoidance to 30% avoidance is a 40% increase in average incoming damage.
Going from 60% avoidance to 40% avoidance is a 50% increase in average incoming damage.
Going from 50% avoidance to 30% avoidance is a 40% increase in average incoming damage.
Sure it doesn't make dodge any less useful, but wouldn't it mean you need more agility to get back to the same amount of dodge, making the stat less attractive overall? Perhaps this is where I'm getting confused.
For example:
Lets say 1000 agility gives you 40% dodge now, that means under the affects of the debuff 1000 agility would only give you 20% dodge. Although each additional point would give you the same amount of additional dodge as now, your overall amount would is down.
Honestly it's Friday, I'm not a math major, and I'm tired...
I'm reading that EJ thread right now and trying to wrap my head around it. My mind is screaming it's kinda like a worse version of Arm. Pen. though it seems we may be past the point where it would actually affect the gearing much, or not, I'm still not sure...
*sighs*
Edit: okay so the more avoidance you have now the more you are affected by the nerf, that part I think I understood.
60% to 50% avoidance = +25% damage
60% to 40% avoidance = +50% damage
60% to 30% avoidance = +75% damage
and
50% to 40% avoidance = +20% damage
50% to 30% avoidance = +40% damage
50% to 20% avoidance = +60% damage
This is part of the "it affects us less part"
So it makes the agility you already have less valuable total, but by discounting only the amount needed to get you to 20% dodge (i.e. that amount has zero value as far as dodge is concerned) and doesn't affect any additional agility you get, and we are way past the point where it would matter.
Still reading but feeling a little less confused, it seems like the biggest thing will be how will blizz sets the boss's damage output based on how this affect the other tanks. Damage taken in a amount of time being a smaller % of total expected tank health, in theory, since the other tanks will be taking even more damage compared to us.
I do suddenly feel overpowered the more I think about this... *ducking the nerf bat*
Edited, Oct 30th 2009 3:19pm by someproteinguy
For example:
Lets say 1000 agility gives you 40% dodge now, that means under the affects of the debuff 1000 agility would only give you 20% dodge. Although each additional point would give you the same amount of additional dodge as now, your overall amount would is down.
Honestly it's Friday, I'm not a math major, and I'm tired...
I'm reading that EJ thread right now and trying to wrap my head around it. My mind is screaming it's kinda like a worse version of Arm. Pen. though it seems we may be past the point where it would actually affect the gearing much, or not, I'm still not sure...
*sighs*
Edit: okay so the more avoidance you have now the more you are affected by the nerf, that part I think I understood.
60% to 50% avoidance = +25% damage
60% to 40% avoidance = +50% damage
60% to 30% avoidance = +75% damage
and
50% to 40% avoidance = +20% damage
50% to 30% avoidance = +40% damage
50% to 20% avoidance = +60% damage
This is part of the "it affects us less part"
So it makes the agility you already have less valuable total, but by discounting only the amount needed to get you to 20% dodge (i.e. that amount has zero value as far as dodge is concerned) and doesn't affect any additional agility you get, and we are way past the point where it would matter.
Still reading but feeling a little less confused, it seems like the biggest thing will be how will blizz sets the boss's damage output based on how this affect the other tanks. Damage taken in a amount of time being a smaller % of total expected tank health, in theory, since the other tanks will be taking even more damage compared to us.
I do suddenly feel overpowered the more I think about this... *ducking the nerf bat*
Edited, Oct 30th 2009 3:19pm by someproteinguy
That monster in the mirror, he just might be you. -Grover
Hmm, maybe I'm thinking about this the wrong way, but wouldn't this change make AGI even more valuable previously? For example, if a tank right now has 50% dodge, increasing it by 1% would increase the rate of dodging by 2%(1/50). However, for a tank with 30% dodge(50%-20), increasing dodge by 1% would increase dodge rate by 3.33%(1/30). The dodge/agility scaling isn't changing, so wouldn't this actually give a higher value on AGI as opposed to stacking Stam? At the very least, I would think AGI would be just as important as before.
Don't overcomplicate it. Everything remains the same except you in theory are aiming for 120% dodge instead of 100%.
Your character pane will still show up exactly as it does now, but when you step into Icecrown it will drop by a flat 20%. You need to keep thinking about your dodge going from 50%->51% not 30%->31%.
And we don't need to worry about trying to get our dodge back up to 50% again to be as geared as we are currently because Icecrown is being balanced around the change and the bosses won't be hitting as hard.
Overall, we can pretty much basically ignore this change and continue gearing as we would have, safe in the knowledge that if anything, this may have slightly increased our tanking power compared to the other tanking classes.
Your character pane will still show up exactly as it does now, but when you step into Icecrown it will drop by a flat 20%. You need to keep thinking about your dodge going from 50%->51% not 30%->31%.
And we don't need to worry about trying to get our dodge back up to 50% again to be as geared as we are currently because Icecrown is being balanced around the change and the bosses won't be hitting as hard.
Overall, we can pretty much basically ignore this change and continue gearing as we would have, safe in the knowledge that if anything, this may have slightly increased our tanking power compared to the other tanking classes.
I don't want to confuse anyone so...
1) Each additional % of dodge you have is better than the last. The extreme example would be going from 0% to 5% VS going from 95% to 100%. In the first, you dodge so little that your healers are still spamming everything they have as if you would never dodge. In the 2nd, you just might actually take two hits in a row once in a great while moving up to being invulnerable to physical attacks.
and 2) There are diminishing returns on dodge and agility. Where naked, the first 90agi (97AGI Talents) you equip might be worth (13.39%[180AGI] - 11.35% [83AGI]) 2.04%. And the last 90AGI would be worth (37.73%[1672AGI] - 36.47% [1575AGI]) 1.26%. For reference, this quick real number scenario was done as naked, talented Tauren upgrading to Greatness & then also DPS geared minus one trinket slot to adding greatness. The same 90AGI went from 2.04% in value to being worth 1.26% in dodge value. The higher you go, the lower the value you will get out of the next 90AGI.
So on one hand, each % of dodge is worth more than the last % because of *1*, but each point of agility, or dodge for that matter, is worth less than the last point as seen in *2*
This debuff Aura, is a flat 20% subtracted off what your dodge would look like before stepping into the instance. So in full IC gear, you might have let's say 56% dodge just standing there raid buffed without mongoose, idol, etc procs outside of the instance, but once you step inside, it would be worth 36%. At this high number of dodge (56%), you can be sure you're probably getting less per 90AGI than the 1.26% I have shown in dps gear by adding the greatness trinket. This DR effect will continue to gradually increase on both dodge and agility as you gear up.
I'm not going to sit here and pretend I can answer whether or not it will be a good idea to gem or otherwise focus on agility/dodge at those high of avoidance numbers. What I can say, and it's not saying much, is that the DR may or may not make it worth while initially and then once you get another few % it may or may not change what is more useful, but Stam suffers no penalty on any sort of DR.
In the end, some of it will likely come down to personal preference, and the rest might come down to knowing exactly what to expect on each boss because simple words hinting at tanks still possibly dieing to two hits initially getting into IC as GC has already suggested just isn't the same thing as actually being there or having someone tell you exactly how hard they were hit for.
I will leave you with what GC says on the matter.
The underlined is my added text based on my reading of one of the threads on the subject that GC has been posting in since it doesn't really come off as very clear. Many interpreted it as him saying bosses would swing more often which is not the case. The bold is my emphasis on his own text.
1) Each additional % of dodge you have is better than the last. The extreme example would be going from 0% to 5% VS going from 95% to 100%. In the first, you dodge so little that your healers are still spamming everything they have as if you would never dodge. In the 2nd, you just might actually take two hits in a row once in a great while moving up to being invulnerable to physical attacks.
and 2) There are diminishing returns on dodge and agility. Where naked, the first 90agi (97AGI Talents) you equip might be worth (13.39%[180AGI] - 11.35% [83AGI]) 2.04%. And the last 90AGI would be worth (37.73%[1672AGI] - 36.47% [1575AGI]) 1.26%. For reference, this quick real number scenario was done as naked, talented Tauren upgrading to Greatness & then also DPS geared minus one trinket slot to adding greatness. The same 90AGI went from 2.04% in value to being worth 1.26% in dodge value. The higher you go, the lower the value you will get out of the next 90AGI.
So on one hand, each % of dodge is worth more than the last % because of *1*, but each point of agility, or dodge for that matter, is worth less than the last point as seen in *2*
This debuff Aura, is a flat 20% subtracted off what your dodge would look like before stepping into the instance. So in full IC gear, you might have let's say 56% dodge just standing there raid buffed without mongoose, idol, etc procs outside of the instance, but once you step inside, it would be worth 36%. At this high number of dodge (56%), you can be sure you're probably getting less per 90AGI than the 1.26% I have shown in dps gear by adding the greatness trinket. This DR effect will continue to gradually increase on both dodge and agility as you gear up.
I'm not going to sit here and pretend I can answer whether or not it will be a good idea to gem or otherwise focus on agility/dodge at those high of avoidance numbers. What I can say, and it's not saying much, is that the DR may or may not make it worth while initially and then once you get another few % it may or may not change what is more useful, but Stam suffers no penalty on any sort of DR.
In the end, some of it will likely come down to personal preference, and the rest might come down to knowing exactly what to expect on each boss because simple words hinting at tanks still possibly dieing to two hits initially getting into IC as GC has already suggested just isn't the same thing as actually being there or having someone tell you exactly how hard they were hit for.
I will leave you with what GC says on the matter.
GC wrote:
It arguably makes stam less important (though it will always be important for tanks). Many players are probably telling you right now that only stamina and armor are important because if you ever fail to avoid two boss hits in a row that you're going to die. Under that environment, avoidance loses a lot of value.
If bosses hit for less in IC (which they will, since they will hit more often (because you will have 20% less avoidance, not because the opponent swings faster)) then the value of avoidance for purposes of survival increases.
I still expect many tanks will die in two hits until they get geared up a little. But they will, and then the ability to survive two hits in a row won't be as big an issue.
...
Avoidance relative value
If your conclusion is that anything that improves your avoidance is now bad as a result of this change, you should think through it a little more. If you didn't like avoidance before, nothing changes. If you liked avoidance before, nothing changes. You just have less of it now. The relative value should not change, unless you get to the point where bosses no longer two-shot tanks so much, in which case the relative value of avoidance increases.
If bosses hit for less in IC (which they will, since they will hit more often (because you will have 20% less avoidance, not because the opponent swings faster)) then the value of avoidance for purposes of survival increases.
I still expect many tanks will die in two hits until they get geared up a little. But they will, and then the ability to survive two hits in a row won't be as big an issue.
...
Avoidance relative value
If your conclusion is that anything that improves your avoidance is now bad as a result of this change, you should think through it a little more. If you didn't like avoidance before, nothing changes. If you liked avoidance before, nothing changes. You just have less of it now. The relative value should not change, unless you get to the point where bosses no longer two-shot tanks so much, in which case the relative value of avoidance increases.
The underlined is my added text based on my reading of one of the threads on the subject that GC has been posting in since it doesn't really come off as very clear. Many interpreted it as him saying bosses would swing more often which is not the case. The bold is my emphasis on his own text.
Torzak of Carbuncle(Moved To Asura)
Friar RareBeast wrote:
Overall, we can pretty much basically ignore this change and continue gearing as we would have, safe in the knowledge that if anything, this may have slightly increased our tanking power compared to the other tanking classes.
I'm going to gem more Stam then before. But ya not a big shift.
Torzak wrote:
stuff
I think it makes Stam and Armor more important whatever GC says. I was doing a chant Agi mostly and gem with Shiftings and Delicate JC strat. With the change I will likely chant the same but gem more for Stam. Red sockets with a decent bonus Shifting otherwise Stam, likely a mix for the JC gems. But the JC gems depends on my weapon situation more than anything.
I am one of the few folks that doesn't go all Stam crazy though.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Why is no one in this thread discussing the fact that the damage threshold has been lowered?
Yeah, you'll dodge less. But you'll be being hit way less as well. In Blizz's own words, this change was not to nerf tank stats. It was implemented to change the way tanking and healing works.
At the moment, a tank needs massive health pools to survive, because it's a "fail to dodge 5 times in a row and you'll probably die" system, unless your healer is extremely geared and skilled, because you get hit so much.
Now, you can get hit more, for less damage. You need less health from before as a result, and avoidance/mitigation gains a larger boost.
If you just ignore the threshold part, it seems like a nerf. But it is actually likely to improve tank survivability and lower stress levels for healers and tanks across the board.
I don't get why you'd gem for more stam (of course, this is with the assumption that the damage threshhold is lowered in proportion to the avoidance nerf, with content level considered).
Yeah, you'll dodge less. But you'll be being hit way less as well. In Blizz's own words, this change was not to nerf tank stats. It was implemented to change the way tanking and healing works.
At the moment, a tank needs massive health pools to survive, because it's a "fail to dodge 5 times in a row and you'll probably die" system, unless your healer is extremely geared and skilled, because you get hit so much.
Now, you can get hit more, for less damage. You need less health from before as a result, and avoidance/mitigation gains a larger boost.
If you just ignore the threshold part, it seems like a nerf. But it is actually likely to improve tank survivability and lower stress levels for healers and tanks across the board.
I don't get why you'd gem for more stam (of course, this is with the assumption that the damage threshhold is lowered in proportion to the avoidance nerf, with content level considered).
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
idiggory wrote:
But you'll be being hit way less as well. In Blizz's own words,
blizz's own words wrote:
I still expect many tanks will die in two hits until they get geared up a little.
I am pretty sure on day one of 3.3 going live this forum will be filled with tanks who died and respond with "I thought bosses weren't going to hit hard."
It's Icecrown. It's not going to be Naxx.
I am pretty sure on day one of 3.3 going live this forum will be filled with tanks who died and respond with "I thought bosses weren't going to hit hard."
It's Icecrown. It's not going to be Naxx.
Torzak of Carbuncle(Moved To Asura)
idiggory wrote:
I don't get why you'd gem for more stam (of course, this is with the assumption that the damage threshhold is lowered in proportion to the avoidance nerf, with content level considered).
blizz wrote:
I still expect many tanks will die in two hits until they get geared up a little.
I want to see if I can push my EH to the point where I can take 3 as soon as possible. Therefore Stam and Armor get a higher valuation.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Quote:
I still expect many tanks will die in two hits until they get geared up a little.
I am pretty sure on day one of 3.3 going live this forum will be filled with tanks who died and respond with "I thought bosses weren't going to hit hard."
It's Icecrown. It's not going to be Naxx.
I am pretty sure on day one of 3.3 going live this forum will be filled with tanks who died and respond with "I thought bosses weren't going to hit hard."
It's Icecrown. It's not going to be Naxx.
It said many. Not most.
Most tanks entering the content should be able to take more than 2, if their wording was what they meant.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
The thing with less avoidance is that the damage will come in more steadily, with less spikes. This means the heals should be coming in more steadily as well. You won't get healers being fooled by a string of dodges & parries into not casting that heal. Hopefully that means we don't need to go 3 hits with no heals :)
I think that overall if anything the value of stam may decrease relative to Agi due to the smaller hits incoming. I will certainly keep an eye on the theorycrafting numbers as they come in though. Of course, it has been a long time since I have tanked anything other than Coren Direbrew :)
I think that overall if anything the value of stam may decrease relative to Agi due to the smaller hits incoming. I will certainly keep an eye on the theorycrafting numbers as they come in though. Of course, it has been a long time since I have tanked anything other than Coren Direbrew :)
*** double post somehow ***
Edited, Nov 1st 2009 11:12pm by RareBeast
Edited, Nov 1st 2009 11:12pm by RareBeast
So... I'm not supposed to gem for pure stamina before IC? 
I've gemmed stamina across the board, sitting at 37k self-buffed in Bear form with crap gear. Only have around 36% or 37% dodge, though. I like having more health and armor and less avoidance, because often I'm handling large packs of mobs and due to lag and positioning glitches, some of them are always hitting me from behind (rawr). I figure it's better to give the healer some time to figure out what's going than have him fall asleep halfway through the instance and then miss that two-shot non-dodge I took on a boss.
Anyway, I'll be gemming like I used to and I'll enjoy that we don't have to rely on avoidance for tanking. I hate avoidance tanking. You might as well give Rogues a never-ending Evasion and have them tank. Like in that other game where Rogues were avoidance tanking... what was the name of it? Was it EverQuest or something?
I've gemmed stamina across the board, sitting at 37k self-buffed in Bear form with crap gear. Only have around 36% or 37% dodge, though. I like having more health and armor and less avoidance, because often I'm handling large packs of mobs and due to lag and positioning glitches, some of them are always hitting me from behind (rawr). I figure it's better to give the healer some time to figure out what's going than have him fall asleep halfway through the instance and then miss that two-shot non-dodge I took on a boss.
Anyway, I'll be gemming like I used to and I'll enjoy that we don't have to rely on avoidance for tanking. I hate avoidance tanking. You might as well give Rogues a never-ending Evasion and have them tank. Like in that other game where Rogues were avoidance tanking... what was the name of it? Was it EverQuest or something?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
you certainly need a minimum level of health and I have no idea what that would be as I haven't looked at the bosses at all :)
You just probably don't need much more health that you do now for TotGC. Of course, this is all from the top of my head and I could be totally wrong - that's why I read EJ :)
You just probably don't need much more health that you do now for TotGC. Of course, this is all from the top of my head and I could be totally wrong - that's why I read EJ :)
Quote:
Like in that other game where Rogues were avoidance tanking... what was the name of it? Was it EverQuest or something?
Ninjas in FFXI had two skills that created shadow images, which would absorb one incoming attack.
[EDIT] The shadows would EACH absorb one. They could have 7 at a time, with both spells active.
They were extremely popular tanks for a long time as a result, as your party would only need an off-healer, since the point was to have dodge high enough that it, combined with the shadows, meant you'd never take anything but AoE damage (which wiped all shadows).
They had a pretty big issue with tanking more than one mob, or fast ones, but were very powerful against single, slow ones.
Edited, Nov 1st 2009 7:15pm by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Friar RareBeast wrote:
You just probably don't need much more health that you do now for TotGC. Of course, this is all from the top of my head and I could be totally wrong - that's why I read EJ :)
Well, I'm counting on you to read all those walls of text and relay back any valuable information whenever its relevance is brought up.
Oh, and idiggory, that's probably what I was thinking of, yeah. Not really avoidance, I guess. More like a 7-man Army of the Dead?
Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 5:47am by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Back in BC they had a rogue tank Gruul by putting together a 100% dodge set. They found out he gets to something like 50 30 growths and then resets to zero growths and starts again.
**** Found a link Rogue tanking Gruul
Elitist Jerks has gone downhill a bit. Too many ill-informed people posting over there now about their 1k DPS increase in raid last night was due to the 5 gems they switched - nothing to do with that lucky string of OOC procs and crit rate of 70% instead of their usual 50% due to the RNG
I used to hate the forum ****'s over there (especially when I got infractions) but now I wish they would toughen up a bit and get it back to the hardcore theorycrafters presenting their maths and backing it up with sims or multiple raids etc.
Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 5:41am by RareBeast
Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 5:47am by RareBeast
**** Found a link Rogue tanking Gruul
Elitist Jerks has gone downhill a bit. Too many ill-informed people posting over there now about their 1k DPS increase in raid last night was due to the 5 gems they switched - nothing to do with that lucky string of OOC procs and crit rate of 70% instead of their usual 50% due to the RNG
I used to hate the forum ****'s over there (especially when I got infractions) but now I wish they would toughen up a bit and get it back to the hardcore theorycrafters presenting their maths and backing it up with sims or multiple raids etc.
Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 5:41am by RareBeast
Edited, Nov 2nd 2009 5:47am by RareBeast
Friar RareBeast wrote:
Elitist Jerks has gone downhill a bit. Too many ill-informed people posting over there now about their 1k DPS increase in raid last night was due to the 5 gems they switched - nothing to do with that lucky string of OOC procs and crit rate of 70% instead of their usual 50% due to the RNG
I used to hate the forum ****'s over there (especially when I got infractions) but now I wish they would toughen up a bit and get it back to the hardcore theorycrafters presenting their maths and backing it up with sims or multiple raids etc.
I used to hate the forum ****'s over there (especially when I got infractions) but now I wish they would toughen up a bit and get it back to the hardcore theorycrafters presenting their maths and backing it up with sims or multiple raids etc.
I would have to agree. It is kind of sad as it used to be an excellent resource. Now things by many posters have to be taken with a grain of salt. Especially the newer ones.
TBH even some of the older more reliable posters have gotten lax in the math, sims and WWSs.
I don't read it as often just for that reason.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Chill of the Throne is probably going to crush DK tanks most. Rune Strike is their biggest source of threat and going from ~30% dodge to 10% is really going to hurt that.
ArtemisEnteri wrote:
Chill of the Throne is probably going to crush DK tanks most. Rune Strike is their biggest source of threat and going from ~30% dodge to 10% is really going to hurt that.
GC addressed that. He hasn't come out so far as to say that they're 100% convinced it will be a non-issue, but he has pointed out certain considerations that demonstrate it will be less of a nerf than some DK tanks want to think. Namely, Rune Strike is on-next-attack, meaning it replaces a white hit and its activation is limited based on weapon spead in addition to the dodge/parry requirement. That means dual wielding DK tanks will likely see the largest decrease in threat from the change. To properly evaluate the impact it will have on DK tanks, you have to take that weapon speed into account along with how quickly your target is attacking.
No tank likes seeing their dodge % drop by 20% simply because they walked into a raid. If IC is properly tuned, however, I would prefer Chill of the Throne to something like Gormok in ToGC25 where a tank with 50k HP can be obliterated in the span of half a second if you get a 3-stack impale tick right after a staggering stomp and followed up with a melee swing. RNG gibs suck, and that's where we were going with Icecrown if Blizzard wanted to keep avoidance where it is and simply scale fights up to preserve the "challenge".
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