I just wanted to toss out a thank you to everyone on this thread. You've answered a lot of my questions in the DK tanking department in just one thread. :)
I am a hardcore squishy Priest (two lvl 80s holy/disc/shadow) and I am finally getting around to my deathknight. Switching gears from healer (Rotation? Whats that?) to smacking mobs around up close has been a bit terrifying. I am almost ready to share that terror with my poor guildies when their alts become my party members.
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The primary complaint from DK tanks about the 20% dodge nerf had little to do with survivability and more to do with the reduction in availability of Rune Strike. All tanks will feel the pinch, though it will actually be prot pallies (or, more specifically, healers of prot pallies) who will feel it the most because of the way the damage will be spread out. Even the concern over Rune Strike is questionable, with dual wielding DK tanks the most likely to see any significant reduction in threat as a result of the debuff, and just how substantial that reduction might be is yet to be seen.
The concern over rune strike has little to do with AOE threat (which seems to have been the focus of much of this discussion) and everything to do with single target threat. Rune strike is one of the DK tank's staple threat generating moves (preferably macroed to every possible ability). Unfortunately, rune strike is directly tied to a DK's avoidance, and it is more than just threat if one is using the T8 2-piece set bonus and particularly the Triumph Emblem sigil that grants another 200 dodge rating on rune strike. (this sigil almost always procs). The only answer you have is that DKs should all dual-wield in order to maintain the threat, which forces all DKs into the frost tree in order to tank. I don't have a problem with dual-wield frost being the 'tank' spec for DKs, but blizz has seemed firmly against pigeonholing DKs into a single tree for either tanking or DPSing, and the frost tree just doesn't have the same appeal for tanking that a protection tree does for a warrior or paladin.
Yes all tanks will feel the pinch, (and moreso healers... this is really about making healers pay more attention), but the DK 'avoidance tank' is about more than just avoiding a hit, it directly affects our threat and our bonuses. DK single target threat is already an issue compared to similarly equipped tanks of other classes. Frost has always seemed like the 'AOE' tank spec to me, as HB is like a trash superglue.
For those who have previously mentioned the difficulty of blood tanking in AOE situations, I highly reccomend you start using rune tap. It isn't that hard to drop D&D, death grip, IT PS pest, then rune tap for a blood boil. It glues trash pretty well. Especially when you consider that the t10 gear will add a nice mitigation stat to rune tap usage.
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The concern over rune strike has little to do with AOE threat (which seems to have been the focus of much of this discussion) and everything to do with single target threat. Rune strike is one of the DK tank's staple threat generating moves (preferably macroed to every possible ability). Unfortunately, rune strike is directly tied to a DK's avoidance, and it is more than just threat if one is using the T8 2-piece set bonus and particularly the Triumph Emblem sigil that grants another 200 dodge rating on rune strike. (this sigil almost always procs). The only answer you have is that DKs should all dual-wield in order to maintain the threat, which forces all DKs into the frost tree in order to tank. I don't have a problem with dual-wield frost being the 'tank' spec for DKs, but blizz has seemed firmly against pigeonholing DKs into a single tree for either tanking or DPSing, and the frost tree just doesn't have the same appeal for tanking that a protection tree does for a warrior or paladin.
Yes all tanks will feel the pinch, (and moreso healers... this is really about making healers pay more attention), but the DK 'avoidance tank' is about more than just avoiding a hit, it directly affects our threat and our bonuses. DK single target threat is already an issue compared to similarly equipped tanks of other classes. Frost has always seemed like the 'AOE' tank spec to me, as HB is like a trash superglue.
For those who have previously mentioned the difficulty of blood tanking in AOE situations, I highly reccomend you start using rune tap. It isn't that hard to drop D&D, death grip, IT PS pest, then rune tap for a blood boil. It glues trash pretty well. Especially when you consider that the t10 gear will add a nice mitigation stat to rune tap usage.
It has a LOT to do with AoE threat. A good tank should be tabbing through the crowd. And, with multiple mobs, it is highly likely you'll be getting off a strike or two and a RS between each tab. That's a lot of threat spread around.
Do I think the change is a problem? No. Honestly, threat is usually high enough that some RSs could be a Runic dump instead to increase damage at the expense of threat, with no risk.
And I REALLY fail to see how this change would force DKs to DW. That doesn't seem relevant at all to me. RS is equally as important as DW frost due to ToT. Blood can also toss out decent AoE (not as high as frost, but decent with HS being a cleave and higher BB damage). Unholy has lagged a little ever since they nerfed UB into the ground, but it still has okay building threat. I doubt this debuff is going to change the viability of the specs that much. All of them weigh RS about equal on their priorities list, and all weigh avoidance about the same. Each spec is viable, atm, to various degrees. It isn't until you are at the absolute extremes of content that it matters.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
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And I REALLY fail to see how this change would force DKs to DW.
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It has a LOT to do with AoE threat. A good tank should be tabbing through the crowd. And, with multiple mobs, it is highly likely you'll be getting off a strike or two and a RS between each tab. That's a lot of threat spread around.
I was talking in regards to the next patch with IC radiance in effect, where AOE spells will have a damage cap on them, which I think will also reflect threat gained by the AOE casters. But you are right, if we don't have a rune strike up when we tab to another target, we lose out on a threat gain in multiple mob situations, I just never experienced a problem with maintaining AOE threat unless there was also a paladin tank in the raid spamming consecration, and even then it wasn't a problem to keep alot of the mobs (In blood spec mind you, in frost spec HB is such a great threat glue on aoe).
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Blood can also toss out decent AoE (not as high as frost, but decent with HS being a cleave and higher BB damage).
Well, HS got a nerf to its cleave damage, doing only half damage to the second target. But I agree, which is why I pointed out that blood tanks should be using rune tap as part of their rotation, D%D, grip, IT, PS, pest, rune tap, BB. It takes a few seconds longer than HB, but it still does a great job at gaining AOE threat. Then you can start tabbing through your targets as need be.
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All of them weigh RS about equal on their priorities list, and all weigh avoidance about the same.
True, but I think one of the points made was that it was even more important for a dual wield Frost tank. Which is certainly a point with merit. Regardless, with RS getting a nerf from this avoidance debuff, IC radiance affects DK tanks more than it does any other tanks. It hits a DK tank with the avoidance loss (which all tanks share), then the loss of block (which Druids and DKs share), and then finally it affects DK threat and ability procs with runestrike. (I am talking about the Sigil of Insolence and the t8 tank set bonus).
Obviously this radiance affects the DKs by a greater amount than it does any other tanking class, and once all things are factored in, Paladins outclass us on 3-4 fronts with the debuff. Not that it matters to most raiding guilds who will take their usual tanks, but I am building up my DPS set and I think I might let that warrior or pally tank in IC instead.
Well, DW only needs 1% more avoidance to make up for Parry Gibbing, so it isn't a huge different. The whole point in the spec is to have tanking weapons, so that shouldn't be an issue by default.
I don't think ICR is going to be much of an issue, honestly. Will the raid be hard? Yes, it's the frickin' LK encounter. But ICR isn't to blame. Blizz is balancing the damage around the loss of avoidance. But their intention is still for it to be high, as this is the final frontier of content for Wrath.
And, with the large buff to tanking CDs (they are going back to one minute, and Bone Shield will last 5 again), we should be a lot closer to pallies than we are now.
All in all, I'm pleased ICR is coming. As it stands now, a perfectly skilled and geared tank and healer can still die in many encounters, due to unlucky RNG numbers. I can't wait to see this chance lowered.
I don't think ICR is going to be much of an issue, honestly. Will the raid be hard? Yes, it's the frickin' LK encounter. But ICR isn't to blame. Blizz is balancing the damage around the loss of avoidance. But their intention is still for it to be high, as this is the final frontier of content for Wrath.
And, with the large buff to tanking CDs (they are going back to one minute, and Bone Shield will last 5 again), we should be a lot closer to pallies than we are now.
All in all, I'm pleased ICR is coming. As it stands now, a perfectly skilled and geared tank and healer can still die in many encounters, due to unlucky RNG numbers. I can't wait to see this chance lowered.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
All in all, I'm pleased ICR is coming. As it stands now, a perfectly skilled and geared tank and healer can still die in many encounters, due to unlucky RNG numbers. I can't wait to see this chance lowered.
I agree, I just wish that it had been done in a way that equally affected everyone, like a flat reduction to armor or to 'miss' chance, instead of dodge.
On another subject,
I have run alot of heroic dungeon in the past few months as a tank and I'm getting somewhat bored of doing so. Now that I have reach 36k health unbuffered with nice gears (226 to 245 ilvl), I rarely die and it has become a bit more work and a bit less fun. I wish to move to tanking raid: OS, Naxx and so on. Since I don't want to feel like a noob in the beginning, my question is the following:
Do you know a website that offer in depth resources, guide, etc for tanking raid dungeon. I know that this site and some other offer some info on mobs and how to tank it but I'm looking for something with more details so I'll feel prepared when I will tank my first raid.
I don't mind paying a small fee (like 10$ for a year subcription) but a free site would be better.
Thx for your help
Khross,
Dragonblight
wowarmory
I have run alot of heroic dungeon in the past few months as a tank and I'm getting somewhat bored of doing so. Now that I have reach 36k health unbuffered with nice gears (226 to 245 ilvl), I rarely die and it has become a bit more work and a bit less fun. I wish to move to tanking raid: OS, Naxx and so on. Since I don't want to feel like a noob in the beginning, my question is the following:
Do you know a website that offer in depth resources, guide, etc for tanking raid dungeon. I know that this site and some other offer some info on mobs and how to tank it but I'm looking for something with more details so I'll feel prepared when I will tank my first raid.
I don't mind paying a small fee (like 10$ for a year subcription) but a free site would be better.
Thx for your help
Khross,
Dragonblight
wowarmory
Quote:
Do you know a website that offer in depth resources, guide, etc for tanking raid dungeon. I know that this site and some other offer some info on mobs and how to tank it but I'm looking for something with more details so I'll feel prepared when I will tank my first raid.
Tankspot.com, wowwiki.com, wowhead.com.
You shouldn't really need much else.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Shazaamemt wrote:
Quote:
All in all, I'm pleased ICR is coming. As it stands now, a perfectly skilled and geared tank and healer can still die in many encounters, due to unlucky RNG numbers. I can't wait to see this chance lowered.
I agree, I just wish that it had been done in a way that equally affected everyone, like a flat reduction to armor or to 'miss' chance, instead of dodge.
RS is on next hit, which means the avoidance debuff will have the largest impact on dual wielding DK tanks. If you've got a boss mob hitting you once every 1.5-2 seconds and you're swinging a weapon every 1.5-2.0 seconds, your chance to convert every white attack to a RS is roughly equal to your avoidance. If that same mob is hitting you at the same rate but you're swinging a 2.8 speed weapon, over time your chances to convert each white attack to a RS is substantially higher. The avoidance debuff in Icecrown isn't likely to have a substantial effect on DK tanking for large groups, since 5 mobs hitting you once every 2 seconds with 40% avoidance gives you (statistically speaking) 2 dodges/parries every two seconds to activate RS.
The way a lot of DKs are talking about this, it's as though the avoidance debuff is going to equate to an equal drop in threat, which is far from the case.
Edited, Nov 24th 2009 10:32pm by AureliusSir
I'd like to ask another question along the same line. What are recommended levels of health and avoidance stats before doing some levels of instances? I tried tanking CoS last night at 78, but I was too squish for the healer. I had 19k health, 519 defense, and about a combined 30% parry and dodge. (I'd link my armory, but for some reason the past few times I've logged out in my tank gear it hasn't updated)
My tanking spec is the standard frost spec on the elitist jerks forums
My tanking spec is the standard frost spec on the elitist jerks forums
Quote:
I'd like to ask another question along the same line. What are recommended levels of health and avoidance stats before doing some levels of instances? I tried tanking CoS last night at 78, but I was too squish for the healer. I had 19k health, 519 defense, and about a combined 30% parry and dodge. (I'd link my armory, but for some reason the past few times I've logged out in my tank gear it hasn't updated)
My tanking spec is the standard frost spec on the elitist jerks forums
My tanking spec is the standard frost spec on the elitist jerks forums
That should be more than enough for a Regular instance. Your healer probably wasn't that used to healing yet.
You could maybe lose SOME of that avoidance for health, but it isn't that important. And it isn't worth losing a lot to gain a little, as you probably would trying to change gear pieces at that level.
Remember, 20-21K at Wrath's launch was what tanks were aiming for to tank Heroics.
[EDIT]
Quote:
RS is on next hit, which means the avoidance debuff will have the largest impact on dual wielding DK tanks. If you've got a boss mob hitting you once every 1.5-2 seconds and you're swinging a weapon every 1.5-2.0 seconds, your chance to convert every white attack to a RS is roughly equal to your avoidance. If that same mob is hitting you at the same rate but you're swinging a 2.8 speed weapon, over time your chances to convert each white attack to a RS is substantially higher. The avoidance debuff in Icecrown isn't likely to have a substantial effect on DK tanking for large groups, since 5 mobs hitting you once every 2 seconds with 40% avoidance gives you (statistically speaking) 2 dodges/parries every two seconds to activate RS.
The way a lot of DKs are talking about this, it's as though the avoidance debuff is going to equate to an equal drop in threat, which is far from the case.
The way a lot of DKs are talking about this, it's as though the avoidance debuff is going to equate to an equal drop in threat, which is far from the case.
I put RS on my toolbar to see how often I used my procs last night. While this isn't a good statistic, considering I was, like, tanking bosses while doing it, it's at least a little valuable as hearsay.
I think I only used a max of 2/3 of my RSs. Often less. Since they aren't distributed evenly, I'd often Dodge/Parry while still waiting for another. And there would be periods where I had none. I only had 35-40% avoidance though.
I doubt this will be a huge threat decrease. Will it be one? Probably, in some form. But Blizz has already posted that they are actively looking into if they think it is a problem or not (and their thought is no).
Edited, Nov 25th 2009 9:38am by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
You know people have been running H ToC too many time when they start passing on weapon!
Anyway, I have a weapon question for tank:
Yesterday, I was able to win the Marrowstrike because no one wanted it. Is this weapon better than then Edge of Ruin for tanking? A more precise question would be: Is it worth all the stats loss to gain 34 stam?
By using the Marrowstrike, you would lose
121 str
83 AP
5 Crit Strike
16 ArPen
.14% dodge
1.36% parry
3.61% Crit Chance
You would gain:
106 agi
34 stam (with epic gem)
212 armor
Anyway, I have a weapon question for tank:
Yesterday, I was able to win the Marrowstrike because no one wanted it. Is this weapon better than then Edge of Ruin for tanking? A more precise question would be: Is it worth all the stats loss to gain 34 stam?
By using the Marrowstrike, you would lose
121 str
83 AP
5 Crit Strike
16 ArPen
.14% dodge
1.36% parry
3.61% Crit Chance
You would gain:
106 agi
34 stam (with epic gem)
212 armor
I have a dual spec for Blood DPS and Frost Tanking and use the Edge of Ruin for DPS and Marrowstrike for Tanking.
From my knowledge, Edge of Ruin would be a better weapon for maxing out your avoidance with the STR giving you parry and also up your damage and therefore your TPS, although because of the fact that we're tanks and not DPS the damage you do, while adding to your threat, the majority of the damage I do is in spell damage and the weapon is really only there as a stat stick that allows me to parry and do a little damage.
Marrowstrike allows for more health and higher armor values because of the Agility, which also adds to dodge and is therefore more of a straight damage reduction rather than mitigation (you still get hit but for less rather than just avoiding the hit altogether)
Both of them make decent tanking weapons, I have Pawn up and the stat weights for Blood DPS and Frost Tanking and, for what it's worth, for tanking, Marrowstrike has the higher tanking value while Edge of Ruin has the higher DPS value, but only marginally.
The differences between the two won't make or break your tanking ability, so I say go with what you like to look at the most.
From my knowledge, Edge of Ruin would be a better weapon for maxing out your avoidance with the STR giving you parry and also up your damage and therefore your TPS, although because of the fact that we're tanks and not DPS the damage you do, while adding to your threat, the majority of the damage I do is in spell damage and the weapon is really only there as a stat stick that allows me to parry and do a little damage.
Marrowstrike allows for more health and higher armor values because of the Agility, which also adds to dodge and is therefore more of a straight damage reduction rather than mitigation (you still get hit but for less rather than just avoiding the hit altogether)
Both of them make decent tanking weapons, I have Pawn up and the stat weights for Blood DPS and Frost Tanking and, for what it's worth, for tanking, Marrowstrike has the higher tanking value while Edge of Ruin has the higher DPS value, but only marginally.
The differences between the two won't make or break your tanking ability, so I say go with what you like to look at the most.
I'd use Marrowstrike, personally. You only lose 86 AP with it. And it has that gem slot, which can be anything from 30 Stamina to 20 Strenth to more Exp/Hit/Dodge (never gem for Parry).
Although, if you are an Orc, the Axe might do better with the additional expertise.
Although, if you are an Orc, the Axe might do better with the additional expertise.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quick tanking question:
Since my gear are getting better by the day (thanks to the new IC dungeons), I don't need to use Rune of the Nerubian Carapace on both of my weapon (I'm a DW frost tank) to get def cap. I was thinking about putting Rune of Razorice instead?
Any opinion on that?
Thx,
Khross
Dragonblight
Edited, Dec 13th 2009 4:02pm by gtap
Since my gear are getting better by the day (thanks to the new IC dungeons), I don't need to use Rune of the Nerubian Carapace on both of my weapon (I'm a DW frost tank) to get def cap. I was thinking about putting Rune of Razorice instead?
Any opinion on that?
Thx,
Khross
Dragonblight
Edited, Dec 13th 2009 4:02pm by gtap
Either:
1. stick with the NC one, for the extra avoidance, mitigation from IBF and extra health. If you are def capped without this, it will be worth 1.5% avoidance.
2. Put on the 2% Parry one, for a clear reason.
3. Put on Fallen Crusader, if you are having threat issues.
RI would be a distant fourth, imo. You'll get way more DpS/TpS out of FC, and all 3 of those somehow buff survival (FC will give you a pittance of Parry. 41.74 rating for you, unbuffed, while it is active).
So, ask yourself this. Do you need threat or avoidance? NC will boost avoidance decently, and have a SMALL boost to threat (from RSs). But it also has mitigation, which the others don't. But 1% Stamina for you, unbuffed, is only 270 health. So it isn't a huge boost.
SS will boost your Parry, and make you want to kill yourself less in the instances with disarming mobs/if you PvP. It's threat boost isn't much better than NC.
These two are pretty balanced. NC may be slightly better, though, if you are making sure to use IBF when it is up.
3 will give you the largest threat increase, but the lowest avoidance of the three. It offers no mitigation. But it is damn sexy...
So, what do you need?
1. stick with the NC one, for the extra avoidance, mitigation from IBF and extra health. If you are def capped without this, it will be worth 1.5% avoidance.
2. Put on the 2% Parry one, for a clear reason.
3. Put on Fallen Crusader, if you are having threat issues.
RI would be a distant fourth, imo. You'll get way more DpS/TpS out of FC, and all 3 of those somehow buff survival (FC will give you a pittance of Parry. 41.74 rating for you, unbuffed, while it is active).
So, ask yourself this. Do you need threat or avoidance? NC will boost avoidance decently, and have a SMALL boost to threat (from RSs). But it also has mitigation, which the others don't. But 1% Stamina for you, unbuffed, is only 270 health. So it isn't a huge boost.
SS will boost your Parry, and make you want to kill yourself less in the instances with disarming mobs/if you PvP. It's threat boost isn't much better than NC.
These two are pretty balanced. NC may be slightly better, though, if you are making sure to use IBF when it is up.
3 will give you the largest threat increase, but the lowest avoidance of the three. It offers no mitigation. But it is damn sexy...
So, what do you need?
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
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