Yet another slow day in my cube... I have a gripe and a question... First, the gripe!
On another forum there is a certain individual that seems to have a thing against the divine fury talent. They've stated a few times that "any priests that takes this talent is silly, experimenting, or just wants it for hasted smites," and couple times they have just stated it is a "bad and useless talent."
Okay, I know it is not awesome... and this is this person’s opinion... But is it really THAT bad?
So I gather up some examples to support my argument and go to the forum to voice a different opinion. Maybe disc can skip it, but in order to get to the core holy talents it is one of three talent choices. So you really can't say "any priest" who takes it is just silly. I don't have any noticeable issues with push back, and between reduced spell dmg towards myself vs fast big heal to a tank in need... I go with the faster GH...
The next day I come back and this individual has taken the time to armory me and break down my entire spec talent by talent and tell me what I did wrong and to say "it is obvious you lack experience play your class"... -_- and I thought MY days were boring...
Not only do they make me sound like a noob, but they are critiquing a special spec I had made up for the General V encounter. >.< now I really look like a noob!
I defend my honor, and the divine fury talent, link wowpopular.com as a reference. Of the 4 most used specs, 3/4 (Holy and Disc) take the talent. I wouldn't call all those people silly...
They respond with, well the top priests facing algalon do not take the talent, therefore it is bad.
LoL, well, majority of us are not facing algalon, and do not need to min/max to the extreme for the content we are in. Most of us need to cover all the bases since we are not busting through the ulduar bosses in 3 secs. We also do not have the gear these top guilds have...
So, if you have made it this far, thanks. Needed to get that off my chest to some who can understand my frustration... However, what are your thoughts on the talent point? I am not looking for a who is right or who is wrong, just would the points be better spent in the other two options?
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lolwut? I'm sure there are specialized specs for specialized encounters where Divine Fury is a waste of 5 points but for general raiding? Half a second off Greater Heal is a no brainer, at least for Holy. And it'll only become more so. GC has said in more than one place that Greater Heal should always be the bread and butter heal for Holy and that they'll be reining that back in.
What in heavens name are they suggesting you take instead? It's easy enough to fill out Holy Specialization and Improved Renew in a Holy build without skipping Divine Fury. Healing Focus? A lot of encounters involve some unavoidable damage to the healer, but if you're getting smacked so much that you need Healing Focus to get a heal off, bless you and good luck. Spell Warding? Seriously?
What's more, you'll never ever find a PVP spec that doesn't take it. Besides the faster Holy Fire and Smite, you need it for Searing Light.
What in heavens name are they suggesting you take instead? It's easy enough to fill out Holy Specialization and Improved Renew in a Holy build without skipping Divine Fury. Healing Focus? A lot of encounters involve some unavoidable damage to the healer, but if you're getting smacked so much that you need Healing Focus to get a heal off, bless you and good luck. Spell Warding? Seriously?
What's more, you'll never ever find a PVP spec that doesn't take it. Besides the faster Holy Fire and Smite, you need it for Searing Light.
LoL, I love you ^_^
I was starting to think I was crazy. I'm old enough to know it is useless to voice an opinion to a close minded person. I guess being called silly and inexperienced got to me, lol. Not only that but I felt I had to stand up for all those priests spec’ing into DF!
I wonder if this person even has a priest, they say the raid disc... but all they list is a holy pally and some other lvl80...
I hope they bring back GH, but at the same time I really hope it is not at the cost of our amazing raid heals.
I was starting to think I was crazy. I'm old enough to know it is useless to voice an opinion to a close minded person. I guess being called silly and inexperienced got to me, lol. Not only that but I felt I had to stand up for all those priests spec’ing into DF!
I wonder if this person even has a priest, they say the raid disc... but all they list is a holy pally and some other lvl80...
I hope they bring back GH, but at the same time I really hope it is not at the cost of our amazing raid heals.
As you stated, DF is included in most popular healing builds. I would certainly spec into it for holy.
The only reason I don't have it as disc is that I don't use GH very much, but that's a personal choice. Most disc priests use it too.
The only reason I don't have it as disc is that I don't use GH very much, but that's a personal choice. Most disc priests use it too.
It depends, actually. I don't get it in my disc spec. The thing with the talent is that it isn't bad, but that there's better stuff out there I can get for the 5 points. If I'm discipline, I only use Greater Heal in to cancelcast in fights like Vezax where tank damage is huge and spikey. Aside from that, the heal sucks - it's taking up massive amounts of mana, has an innate long cast timer and doesn't really have synergy with any other talents than Divine Aegis (I will admit, Gheal crit shields are lovely). Specially when cancelcasting fights like Vezax I'd love having 5 seconds off, but I realize it's just not worth it. I can pull through without it, which means I'm better off putting those points in Imp Renew and Healing Focus.
If I'm holy, I never use Greater Heal. If I'm asked to tank heal, I'll be playing disc. As holy, the spells I use most are Prayer of Mending, Flash Heal, Circle of Healing and Prayer of Healing, and I only ocassionaly throw in stuff like Power Word: Shield or Holy Nova. Because of this, I've avoided all talents that improve Greater Heal like the plague in my holy spec. Funnily enough, I've picked up Divine Fury here anyway because even if used once per eight raids, half a second of Gheal does beat -8% spell damage (even though I'm revising that statement as I type it). Regardless, I've even thought about giving up Empowered Healing because of my disuse of Greater Heal - it's just that I can't miss the healing from Binding and Flash heal. If you've got an abundance of Spellpower, something like this could be a very interesting holy spec though.
That said, no, the talent isn't bad per se - it's just that there's generally better stuff around.
If I'm holy, I never use Greater Heal. If I'm asked to tank heal, I'll be playing disc. As holy, the spells I use most are Prayer of Mending, Flash Heal, Circle of Healing and Prayer of Healing, and I only ocassionaly throw in stuff like Power Word: Shield or Holy Nova. Because of this, I've avoided all talents that improve Greater Heal like the plague in my holy spec. Funnily enough, I've picked up Divine Fury here anyway because even if used once per eight raids, half a second of Gheal does beat -8% spell damage (even though I'm revising that statement as I type it). Regardless, I've even thought about giving up Empowered Healing because of my disuse of Greater Heal - it's just that I can't miss the healing from Binding and Flash heal. If you've got an abundance of Spellpower, something like this could be a very interesting holy spec though.
That said, no, the talent isn't bad per se - it's just that there's generally better stuff around.
Quote:
If I'm holy, I never use Greater Heal.
why i use it alot, when a melee dps is close to dead because he is standing in the fire too long could just be my guild through
I love how flexible our holy tree is, you can really bend it to your play style, gear, content, and other healers in the raids.
I can completely see how the points for DF are better used elsewhere for Disc.
I had a spec similar to the last one you posted but went back to putting points in DF and even LoLwell (even if the raid doesn't use it I do!). We have a surprise healer group every raid night. So GH has come in handy for me when the Disc, Pally, and Shammy are MIA and all we have are 3HPriests and 3Druids.
Even when we do have a mix bag of heals in our raids I still get worried and toss the tank a few GHs... I don't know if it is lack of skill or wanting to look better on the meters, but our tank healers seem distracted. I can't count how many times spike dmg has killed our tank because he was left at 40-50% for too long.
I received my 16th fragment last night :) It would be 21, but the raid leads felt it should go to the "chart toppers" before consistent attendees -_-
I can completely see how the points for DF are better used elsewhere for Disc.
I had a spec similar to the last one you posted but went back to putting points in DF and even LoLwell (even if the raid doesn't use it I do!). We have a surprise healer group every raid night. So GH has come in handy for me when the Disc, Pally, and Shammy are MIA and all we have are 3HPriests and 3Druids.
Even when we do have a mix bag of heals in our raids I still get worried and toss the tank a few GHs... I don't know if it is lack of skill or wanting to look better on the meters, but our tank healers seem distracted. I can't count how many times spike dmg has killed our tank because he was left at 40-50% for too long.
I received my 16th fragment last night :) It would be 21, but the raid leads felt it should go to the "chart toppers" before consistent attendees -_-
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why i use it alot, when a melee dps is close to dead because he is standing in the fire too long could just be my guild through
LoL, I usually let them die... >.< Well, I let them die if they are consistantly making me use my mana because they never avoid silly stuff like that... Or I could just be a *****.
Quote:
why i use it alot, when a melee dps is close to dead because he is standing in the fire too long could just be my guild through
Say I'm doing a 25-man in Ulduar and 3 different targets get focused while there's predictable raid damage every 20-30 seconds (Ignis, Kologarn, you name it). The 3 different targets happen to be in seperate groups, so I can't use a group heal. What do I do?
Simple, I throw 3 Flash Heals to get a full stack of Serendipity running for a quick Prayer of Healing when the predictable raid damage hits. Why not Greater Heal?
A) Greater Heal is too slow, even with Divine Fury. It will heal one of them up to full in 2.5 seconds, and the HoTs my druid colleague has placed on that target will go to waste. If I take 3 seconds, I can heal two of them up to >60% hit points (out of the danger zone) and let the druid take care of the rest.
B) Greater Heal will overheal more easily, partly because of it's slowness.
C) 2 or 3 Flash Heals will get me 2 or 3 stacks of Serendipity. 1 Greater Heal will remove any Serendipity I currently have on me.
The reason a holy priest never uses Greater Heal is because Flash Heal is simply a better substitute which also happens to have more synergy with our AOE heals. The only time a holy priest really uses Greater Heal is in extreme niche situations, like when he's the only healer left and needs to be sure a target is healed to full quickly and no raid damage is coming.
Agreed. I have it in my holy build, just because I always have. I use gheal extremely rarely. I think the last time I actually ever relied on it was when I was still new to Nax and trying to keep up on Patchwerk... in a raid that is actually challenging for my gear level, the only time I use it is when a tank's healer dies and I'm helping to pick up slack while we realign. Even then I'd probably just use GS and some other tricks first.
I'm probably going to play with specs to see about dropping it, now that you bring it up.
As far as the personal nature of the poster's response... well, perhaps it was a bit harsh. I'm certainly not going to agree with him, as I haven't seen your gear or spec, nor am I qualified to comment. However, even asshats can be right now and then. Do take a breather, try not to take it personally, and actually look at what he said to see if any of it makes sense for you or could help. If not, ***** him.
If that other forum was EJ, well... as the name implies, you should have been prepared for that kind response from them. :D
Edited, Aug 26th 2009 6:46pm by Saaru
I'm probably going to play with specs to see about dropping it, now that you bring it up.
As far as the personal nature of the poster's response... well, perhaps it was a bit harsh. I'm certainly not going to agree with him, as I haven't seen your gear or spec, nor am I qualified to comment. However, even asshats can be right now and then. Do take a breather, try not to take it personally, and actually look at what he said to see if any of it makes sense for you or could help. If not, ***** him.
If that other forum was EJ, well... as the name implies, you should have been prepared for that kind response from them. :D
Edited, Aug 26th 2009 6:46pm by Saaru
Quote:
As far as the personal nature of the poster's response... well, perhaps it was a bit harsh. I'm certainly not going to agree with him, as I haven't seen your gear or spec, nor am I qualified to comment. However, even asshats can be right now and then. Do take a breather, try not to take it personally, and actually look at what he said to see if any of it makes sense for you or could help. If not, ***** him.
If that other forum was EJ, well... as the name implies, you should have been prepared for that kind response from them. :D
If that other forum was EJ, well... as the name implies, you should have been prepared for that kind response from them. :D
Surprising enough, it was not the EJ forums (they make my brain hurt, I like words not numbers) it was the Tankspot healing forum (which has some great info and discussion).
I believe my spec was something like:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#bVcbkhhZcLtcsMaiz0xuAo:m0d0Vz
But it was for our first attempt on General V, and I wanted to make the most of every spell I cast since there is no normal mana regen. This person just decided, because I had voiced an opinion different than theirs, to look me up and based on whatever armory spec I had judge me. They took the above spec to be my main spec, posted me on the forums, and critized every point I had placed. Maybe they were trying to help, or maybe they just don't like people who disagree with them :)
EJ has been losing hellalot credability in my eyes lately anyway. I've always seen the name 'Elitist Jerks' as a bit of a 'reappropriate' name (A 'geuzennaam' in my language), more meant jokily than seriously. But if you scroll through their forums (specially the part they call the 'dungpit') you see they are actual elitist jerks - sometimes tearing down on perfectly valid posts because the poster forgot a freaking period in one sentence.
That, and the fact that I've actually seen hell a lot of bad info from their side (especially from the DK parts) don't make it a "100% valid source" anymore to me like it used to be.
Edit: Oh, also, I just remembered another reason why I've got Divine Fury; my holy spec is also my heroic-DPS spec, odd as that might sound.
Edited, Aug 27th 2009 6:14pm by Mozared
That, and the fact that I've actually seen hell a lot of bad info from their side (especially from the DK parts) don't make it a "100% valid source" anymore to me like it used to be.
Edit: Oh, also, I just remembered another reason why I've got Divine Fury; my holy spec is also my heroic-DPS spec, odd as that might sound.
Edited, Aug 27th 2009 6:14pm by Mozared
I've gotten multiple infractions (a.k.a. warnings) on EJ for pointing people who asked a stupid question the right way.
And that's so silly in my eyes that I've pretty much stopped going there as TKAsomething is almost as good on information for hunters and has loads and loads and loads more community.
And that's so silly in my eyes that I've pretty much stopped going there as TKAsomething is almost as good on information for hunters and has loads and loads and loads more community.
It really depends on what you find yourself using.
As disc you might toss in a gheal from time to time, but I almost never do and it's not worth the points to me
As holy I almost never cast it anyway because i'm too busy getting my poh/coh/renew spamme going..
I would never call a holy priest a noob for having it, maybe they don't focus on raids and use it in 5 man heroics or something....
Priest is one of the few classes i've found you can sway from the cookie cutter spec's slightly and not be hurting yourself =)
As disc you might toss in a gheal from time to time, but I almost never do and it's not worth the points to me
As holy I almost never cast it anyway because i'm too busy getting my poh/coh/renew spamme going..
I would never call a holy priest a noob for having it, maybe they don't focus on raids and use it in 5 man heroics or something....
Priest is one of the few classes i've found you can sway from the cookie cutter spec's slightly and not be hurting yourself =)
I took it as disc, because you never know if you're the last man standing, gets that damage spell off quicker to finish a mob.
I've been playing around with GHeal again, saving my penance for "oh ****" moments when the dps gets in a bind. My tanks usually don't need spammed heals anymore, they are pretty well geared. Haven't had to heal much in Uld, so that may change.
I've been playing around with GHeal again, saving my penance for "oh ****" moments when the dps gets in a bind. My tanks usually don't need spammed heals anymore, they are pretty well geared. Haven't had to heal much in Uld, so that may change.
I personally think it is sort of wasted. I have it in my build but it rarely gets used. If I happen to be healing a fight with lots of aoe damage I take spell warding instead because its about the only thing in that rank of the talent tree that is actually worth anything in that situation.
Okay fine, but I'm keeping it so neener neener. :P
Mozared wrote:
Funnily enough, I've picked up Divine Fury here anyway because even if used once per eight raids, half a second of Gheal does beat -8% spell damage (even though I'm revising that statement as I type it).
That's such a situational statement though. At the Naxx level, sure. You have time, should the tank get low enough, to toss out that extra heal. From what I've seen of normal mode 10-man Ulduar though (nothing compared to hard mode 25m), I can't imagine there being a chance to even get a 2.5s heal out there without forcing other healers to pick up a lot of slack.
There's also a ton of magical damage in Ulduar, and a dead healer can create a pretty nasty situation depending on how many healers your group runs with. -10% to that damage can easily save your life.
Aye, you're right. Even though I dread what this will do to my holy DPS, I'm probably going to respec those couple of points anyway.
I don't spec into either Spell Warding or Divine Fury for disc. First tier is filled out, though, including Imp Renew. When I was deciding on it, I was thinking that the 10% damage reduction would be nice, but I would rather have the pushback protection from Healing Focus (a clipped Penance makes me go "awwww"). If I am taking damage, someone else is too. I need to get timely heals off during this period. I am certain that Spell Warding would have saved me from time to time, but I felt that this did not outweigh the benefit of having a stronger Renew (which I do use situationally as Disc), and the pushback coverage, for those times that I cannot cover my casts with a shield.
With my Holy build, I had 4 "filler" points to get to the 5th tier. I could have put them into Spell Warding, but my mindset had already ruled it out as an option in my disc build and just followed that while putting together my holy build. I guess that a single specced holy priest would take Divine Fury to improve single target healing when not raid healing. Whenever I am tasked with tank healing, I switch to disc, so my solution may not be usable by someone with a single spec or a heal/dps or heal/pvp build.
I have used Gheal as holy, but not as much as I thought I would when I originally put those points in Divine Fury. I am going to respec it into 4/5 Spell Warding to see if I notice a difference.
Disc build
Holy build
With my Holy build, I had 4 "filler" points to get to the 5th tier. I could have put them into Spell Warding, but my mindset had already ruled it out as an option in my disc build and just followed that while putting together my holy build. I guess that a single specced holy priest would take Divine Fury to improve single target healing when not raid healing. Whenever I am tasked with tank healing, I switch to disc, so my solution may not be usable by someone with a single spec or a heal/dps or heal/pvp build.
I have used Gheal as holy, but not as much as I thought I would when I originally put those points in Divine Fury. I am going to respec it into 4/5 Spell Warding to see if I notice a difference.
Disc build
Holy build
Made the swap myself yesterday. From this to this. I figured the 20% more scaling on my Flash/Binding Heal would be evened out by the 60 extra spellpower from Spiritual Guidance and Test of Faith, and I could use up that last point to fill Healing Focus up once again. And I indeed took Spell Warding over Divine Fury. From what I've seen so far I seem to be right; my Flash Heals still heal for more or less the same amount which means I've only improved from what I had.
This thread has been interesting to me. I've been out of the raiding loop for a long time now and back when I was still doing it, WoTLK wasn't very old and we were still getting used to having two great healing trees to choose from. Now I see that as that has evolved it's become much more pigeon-holy (pun!). Disc was always regarded as a tank healing spec, but now the holy priest is likewise regarded as only a raid/AE healer and not the great all-around do-whatever's-needed-at-the-moment guy he once was. I suspect dual spec has a lot to do with this: if you need to do some tank healing, you can just change spec on the fly.
I don't think there's anything wrong with this, it's just an observation. The priest as a class is still able to do all jobs and that's the main thing for me. In fact, I think it's kind of fun for us to learn mutliple trees as well as we need to to do all things well.
An interesting (if you define "interesting" as "stupidly obsessed with priest builds") thing to consider, though, is folks like me who aren't going to be raiding and whose PVE healing is likely to be limited to heroics. I think there are a fair number of us out there. Disc is a viable build for that. But for my money I'll take the more traditional Holy build with powerful group healing and a nice solid gheal for the tank. Not great for specialized raiding but still a good all-purpose type build.
I don't think there's anything wrong with this, it's just an observation. The priest as a class is still able to do all jobs and that's the main thing for me. In fact, I think it's kind of fun for us to learn mutliple trees as well as we need to to do all things well.
An interesting (if you define "interesting" as "stupidly obsessed with priest builds") thing to consider, though, is folks like me who aren't going to be raiding and whose PVE healing is likely to be limited to heroics. I think there are a fair number of us out there. Disc is a viable build for that. But for my money I'll take the more traditional Holy build with powerful group healing and a nice solid gheal for the tank. Not great for specialized raiding but still a good all-purpose type build.
That leaves me with a problem, as I'll be going Disc PvP for sure with one build... but the other, hmmm.
Ah well, troubles for later I suppose.. I need 11 more levels to get there first.
Ah well, troubles for later I suppose.. I need 11 more levels to get there first.
Ok dokey, now currently specced like this:
Disc
Holy
Will let you know how it turns out.
I moved points into Test of Faith that I previously had no interest in. After doing some reading, I found that the arguments and math for it are compelling.
I know, I know...lolwell? I am doing a small experiment and pulled a point out of Healing Focus for it.
I was actually quite surprised to find that it does over 10k healing over 6 seconds when I tested it.
Disc
Holy
Will let you know how it turns out.
I moved points into Test of Faith that I previously had no interest in. After doing some reading, I found that the arguments and math for it are compelling.
I know, I know...lolwell? I am doing a small experiment and pulled a point out of Healing Focus for it.
I was actually quite surprised to find that it does over 10k healing over 6 seconds when I tested it.
I *think* I've got divine fury in my holy spec (which I need to review as I did it in a bit of a hurry) and I don't view it as wasted talents. My main spec is shadow, so depending on other healers I can find myself tank healing in holy spec. Whilst I normally stick to Flash Heal and Renew for that I do sometimes find a GH useful if they dip very low, so the time reduction for me does make it potentially useful.
I have not been able to get on the Tankspot Healing forum from work for some odd reason. But the individual who kinda started this whole thing has posted their feelings about "Greater Heal Talents"... I was about to look over it quickly, they had some calculations up, but then my internet crashed. If anyone is feeling bored or curious it is up on TS forums.
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Disc was always regarded as a tank healing spec, but now the holy priest is likewise regarded as only a raid/AE healer and not the great all-around do-whatever's-needed-at-the-moment guy he once was. I suspect dual spec has a lot to do with this: if you need to do some tank healing, you can just change spec on the fly.
I wish one of my fellow holy priests would dual spec disc... We have been running with 3 Holy in most our raids, too much sniping. I had dropped my disc spec since my gear lends itself to shadow more than disc. Maybe the changes coming to gear and stats will allow us dual spec and not need to hunt down full offsets.
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I moved points into Test of Faith that I previously had no interest in. After doing some reading, I found that the arguments and math for it are compelling.
I took my points from Holy Concentration and Specialization in order to fill up both emp renew and test of faith. Raid buffed I have over 30% crit and even in ToC I am not running oom.
I too took LoLwell, not so much for the raid but for myself and a couple of ranged that actually use it. I also make a lot of use of it during H ToC.
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