Like all of us, I was on briefly last night to respec and check out the changes. Was also curious on how bad Frost Presence got nerfed and it got nerfed pretty bad, imo. I am only 68 and just duo with my bro and am spec for Unholy. I always have Blood Presence active unless I see some PvP I may switch to Frost Presence for the nice health boost and damage reduction.
Long story short, I have about 9k health in Blood Presence and when I switched to Frost Presence I had a whopping 9300 or so. I kinda chuckled.
Anyone feel this was a fair adjustment or was this nerf pretty hard on you?
Edited, Aug 5th 2009 9:25am by Stucco
Edited, Aug 5th 2009 9:25am by Stucco
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Frost Presence was nerfed to try to help bring DK tanks back into line with Warriors, Paladins, and Druids (also a PVP nerf). It will be hard to say whether it's excessive or not until we see how DK tanks deal with T8 and T9 compared with other tanks, especially on hard modes, moving forward.
I'm curious about this too. I know *why* frost presence was nerfed, but seeing as I currently don't have access to the game I wouldn't mind hearing experiences.
They made this change to balance out T8/T9?
You have got to be kidding me.
You have got to be kidding me.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Source
Ghostcrawler wrote:
We buffed Frost Presence when we nerfed some DK cooldowns a patch or two ago. However, we were a little generous at that time and we have ended up in a spot where in current available gear, DKs had slightly better armor, avoidance and health than warriors and paladins, and cooldowns that were much better.
We were starting to see many guilds ask their warrior or paladin to step aside so the DK could tank the hard mode encounters. This was not an isolated incident for a few guilds -- this was the kind of widespread phenomenon that really makes us take notice. If it was a boss or two that the DK was the best at, we would have just kept an eye on it. Increasingly though it was every hard mode. :( I will be the first to admit that the community is wrong sometimes. We don't think that is the case this time. The numbers backed up their conclusions pretty well.
No doubt many of you will attribute this to QQ from other players, and I'm not sure much I can say will change your mind. When players don't think a nerf is justified, that is nearly always their conclusion (the other is that we're out of touch).
This was primarily a PvE tanking nerf, but given the number of DKs who were starting to sit for long periods of PvP in Frost Presence, we don't mind at all that Frost Presence will be less attractive in PvP too.
We think there is a risk that druids will take the place of DKs now. We think that risk is small because while druid armor and health are high, their cooldowns are nowhere near the DK level. So we'll just keep an eye on it for now.
If we can get block to be a powerful mitigation stat again we realize that will change the landscape and we'll have to evaluate the staying power of all 4 classes again. For now, we hope this change will put the tanks in a much closer place. (Though if you are keeping note, we would still like to give paladins another reliable cooldown.)
We were starting to see many guilds ask their warrior or paladin to step aside so the DK could tank the hard mode encounters. This was not an isolated incident for a few guilds -- this was the kind of widespread phenomenon that really makes us take notice. If it was a boss or two that the DK was the best at, we would have just kept an eye on it. Increasingly though it was every hard mode. :( I will be the first to admit that the community is wrong sometimes. We don't think that is the case this time. The numbers backed up their conclusions pretty well.
No doubt many of you will attribute this to QQ from other players, and I'm not sure much I can say will change your mind. When players don't think a nerf is justified, that is nearly always their conclusion (the other is that we're out of touch).
This was primarily a PvE tanking nerf, but given the number of DKs who were starting to sit for long periods of PvP in Frost Presence, we don't mind at all that Frost Presence will be less attractive in PvP too.
We think there is a risk that druids will take the place of DKs now. We think that risk is small because while druid armor and health are high, their cooldowns are nowhere near the DK level. So we'll just keep an eye on it for now.
If we can get block to be a powerful mitigation stat again we realize that will change the landscape and we'll have to evaluate the staying power of all 4 classes again. For now, we hope this change will put the tanks in a much closer place. (Though if you are keeping note, we would still like to give paladins another reliable cooldown.)
Ghostcrawler wrote:
When we were doing tests with Ulduar-geared tanks, the DK took less damage than the warrior even if neither tank used any cooldowns. The DK health, armor and avoidance were all higher. Given that the DK cooldowns are superior, this seemed like a problem.
Blocking contributed something paltry like 2-3% less damage taken by the warrior. To be fair, this is skewed by many Ulduar warriors avoiding blocking stats, and the outcome would be different on a very-fast swinging boss -- Algalon perhaps, though DKs seem really good on him too. (We have another thread on block going, so I would ask that you confine block discussions that don't directly affect death knights to that thread.)
We are not nerfing DK cooldowns at this time, though we might in the future, largely depending on the outcome of this change. A common suggestion is to change Icebound Fortitude to 2 minutes but restore the tanking talents (i.e. Bone Shield, Unbreakable Armor, Vampiric Blood) to a 1 minute cooldown, altering the numbers if needed. This is little more than me hand-waving at this point however.
Blocking contributed something paltry like 2-3% less damage taken by the warrior. To be fair, this is skewed by many Ulduar warriors avoiding blocking stats, and the outcome would be different on a very-fast swinging boss -- Algalon perhaps, though DKs seem really good on him too. (We have another thread on block going, so I would ask that you confine block discussions that don't directly affect death knights to that thread.)
We are not nerfing DK cooldowns at this time, though we might in the future, largely depending on the outcome of this change. A common suggestion is to change Icebound Fortitude to 2 minutes but restore the tanking talents (i.e. Bone Shield, Unbreakable Armor, Vampiric Blood) to a 1 minute cooldown, altering the numbers if needed. This is little more than me hand-waving at this point however.
Just to give a real, ingame reference, I can tell you what happened to me.
Unbuffed, my DK tank set/gear, used to have just over 30,000. Now I have ~28,200. I lost ~1,800 HP.
Unbuffed, my DK tank set/gear, used to have just over 30,000. Now I have ~28,200. I lost ~1,800 HP.
Scholar
27 posts
Used to have 33.4k. Went down to 31.1. ><
But ah well. Now i have pretty much the same amount of health that similar geared warriors/pallys have, so i guess it is not that bad.
Edited, Aug 6th 2009 3:42am by Azena
But ah well. Now i have pretty much the same amount of health that similar geared warriors/pallys have, so i guess it is not that bad.
Edited, Aug 6th 2009 3:42am by Azena
If there was a problem with T8/T9 gear being overpowered, how about maybe nerfing the gear?
Not all DKs are in Ulduar. All DKs however have to have this change. I've gone down to 24k health, that's barely OK even for Naxx!
Now I'm forced to abandon my experiments with DW tanking as I pretty much have to go Blood and use my JC gems for stam.
Not all DKs are in Ulduar. All DKs however have to have this change. I've gone down to 24k health, that's barely OK even for Naxx!
Now I'm forced to abandon my experiments with DW tanking as I pretty much have to go Blood and use my JC gems for stam.
Yeah, I don't do PvP arenas or battlegrounds yet and not to endgame content yet either. Frost Presence really was nice in PvE to be able to solo an elite mob and such. Only getting and extra 300hp versus what I was getting, close to 1000, Frost Presence just isn't that attracting to me anymore.
Blizzard needs to decide what their definition of hero class is. Some say it's just because you start at lvl 55 and get epic ground mount early and free and really good blue gear. Others say it should be a little stronger than other classes. I guess blizzard likes option 1 as they are stating they are trying to make DK an equal to Paladin, War and Druid.
Blizzard needs to decide what their definition of hero class is. Some say it's just because you start at lvl 55 and get epic ground mount early and free and really good blue gear. Others say it should be a little stronger than other classes. I guess blizzard likes option 1 as they are stating they are trying to make DK an equal to Paladin, War and Druid.
I wouldn't really mind if we were equal to Warrior, Paladin and Druid. But now it seems the only way we are is with best in slot gear.
Rasen wrote:
I wouldn't really mind if we were equal to Warrior, Paladin and Druid. But now it seems the only way we are is with best in slot gear.
That's a pretty bold claim for two days after the patch. Why not wait a while for the dust to clear before declaring the end of the world?
Stucco wrote:
Blizzard needs to decide what their definition of hero class is. Some say it's just because you start at lvl 55 and get epic ground mount early and free and really good blue gear. Others say it should be a little stronger than other classes. I guess blizzard likes option 1 as they are stating they are trying to make DK an equal to Paladin, War and Druid.
They never should've started the goddam "Hero class" crap in the first place. Really, if they don't plan on making the class stronger than other classes, there's nothing "Heroic" about it. Yes, it's the class Arthas "played" during Warcraft 3, but really, Arthas was also a Paladin, Uther was a Paladin, Jaina was a Mage, Thrall was a Shaman, Stormrage was a Druid, Cairne was a Warrior, if I remember correctly. Oh, and Sylvanas was a Hunter.
Most of the classes in the game derive from the classes in Warcraft 3, including Death Knights. There's no reason, whatsoever, why Death Knights should be anything special compared to the other classes. There's no reason to call it a hero class, because all of the heroes in the old game played different classes.
It's just a new class, nothing more, nothing less.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
what maz said.
dks were nerfed because they were very strong tanks. now theyre about on par with the other four tanks. if anything, druids are a bit strong, but thats largely because they scale so well with so few stats. the question is whether or not theyll be too strong, and only time and the new instance will tell for that.
as for balancing around end game gear....well....welcome to life as a warrior. if you thought undeath was cold and unforgiving, you aint seen nothing yet.
Edited, Aug 8th 2009 2:59am by Quor
dks were nerfed because they were very strong tanks. now theyre about on par with the other four tanks. if anything, druids are a bit strong, but thats largely because they scale so well with so few stats. the question is whether or not theyll be too strong, and only time and the new instance will tell for that.
as for balancing around end game gear....well....welcome to life as a warrior. if you thought undeath was cold and unforgiving, you aint seen nothing yet.
Edited, Aug 8th 2009 2:59am by Quor
On the bright side; resilience is nerfed, so I'll still be as unkillable as pre-patch. Just not extra-unkillable.
I'm guessing I might actually have to start PvPing in blood if frost is that horrible now. With my spec I'm unkillable as it is and I could use the damage. The mind wobbles.
I'm guessing I might actually have to start PvPing in blood if frost is that horrible now. With my spec I'm unkillable as it is and I could use the damage. The mind wobbles.
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