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Priest Q&A ReleasedFollow

#1 Aug 03 2009 at 8:58 PM Rating: Excellent
In case you didn't see it on the front page.

Blizzard wrote:
Priest Q&A with the World of Warcraft Development Team

Community Team: Joining us today to close out this round of the Class Q&A Series by addressing questions collected from the priest community is the lead systems designer for World of Warcraft, Ghostcrawler, who has enlisted the assistance of several members of our class design team to provide the most thorough answers possible. We’d like to begin as we always do by addressing what priests add to the World of Warcraft experience.

Q: Where do priests fit in the current scope of things, and where do you see them from this point going forward? What makes them unique?

Ghostcrawler: When you think of the priest in the context of traditional MMOs you think of the token healer, usually part of the “holy trinity” along with the warrior and mage. Many players who picked the priest as their character when they started the game had the expectation that they would be the premier healer, playing the role of support. Certainly in the beginning of World of Warcraft the priest was the class you chose when you were looking for a healer, and the class was adept at filling that role. However, unlike in other RPGs we’ve tried to make healing a role that many classes can fill. This is why sometimes priests can feel that they aren’t balanced correctly, since they aren’t necessarily the best healer.

In World of Warcraft, the priest isn’t a stronger healer than the other classes, but does have unmatched versatility. At its core the priest has two unique talent trees for healing, while the others only have one. Furthermore, the priest has strong heal-over-time spells (HoTs), direct heals, and area-of-effect (AoE) heals. So where the power of the priest comes in is how you use your entire repertoire of healing tools together to overcome a situation, rather than focusing on one aspect. Players sometimes call this the jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none role, but we don’t really view it that way. The priest has a big toolbox. That makes you versatile, but at the cost (in player skill) of knowing how to match the right spell for the right job. The trade-off of the healing priest isn’t in trading power for versatility, but in having narrow niches for spells but a lot of spells.

One other way we’ve tried to make the priest class more enjoyable is by fleshing out its damage-dealing talent specialization (spec), the Shadow tree. In the beginning, the Shadow spec was more of a leveling tree and not really viable for high-end content late game. In The Burning Crusade, it didn’t really keep up in damage compared to other classes in raiding but it did bring strong utility. Finally, in Wrath of the Lich King we increased its damage-dealing potential to make it near that of a primary damage-per-second (dps) caster -- such as a mage -- while also retaining some of its unique utility which made it cool during The Burning Crusade.

Overall, we feel the priest is one of the most versatile classes in the game, and can be the most enjoyable of the healer classes in the game because of its feature of having two different unique talent specs providing two different types of play styles. And for players who enjoy the dps aspect, you always have the option of going to the dark side as Shadow to either melt faces in PvP or help take down foes in PvE. As for moving forward, in a nutshell we’d like to improve the Holy tree’s PvP niche and polish the Shadow tree a bit more for both aspects of the game.

Community Team: Since the role of a priest can vary drastically depending on the type of role the player wishes to fill, let’s focus on Shadow priests and dealing damage first.

Q: What makes a Shadow priest effective in a raid environment versus a PvP environment?

Ghostcrawler: Shadow priests have some start up time to get all of their DoTs going before the damage really starts coming in. This is easier in a boss fight that lasts for several minutes and harder in a really dynamic PvP environment.

Q: Since a lot of the damage a Shadow priest does builds with damage-over-time (DoT) spells, are you concerned about them being well-rounded enough to do adequate damage in shorter PvE encounters, 5-player dungeons, or in the Arenas?

Ghostcrawler: This is a long answer.

First, we want a certain amount of class diversity. We try to make sure that everyone’s single-target dps is comparable to that of similar specs or classes, and we try to make sure that most damage specs can do some amount of AoE damage. But we don’t obsess with say slow group pulls compared with say fast single-target pulls to make sure everyone’s damage is comparable in every situation.

Second, if the pulls are really that quick, nobody is counting on your dps to begin with. What I mean is that if you are pulling and killing groups of mobs faster than every 20 seconds, then the extra damage you might or might not bring isn’t really an issue because stuff is just collapsing anyway. On the other hand, if the pulls take 20 seconds, then you should have plenty of time to get your DoTs up before stuff starts to die.

Third, there is an issue of player skill here too. If your group kills the skull first every time, then maybe you want to DoT the third or fourth mob in the group so that you do have the benefit of time elapsing. DoTs just work differently. The Enhancement shaman by contrast can be at 100% on one target, then switch and be at 100% on the new target instantly. Not every class or spec can do that and class diversity would be a little boring if they could.

Fourth, the issue that we think is most problematic is found in the Shadow talents. Many of them say basically "while your DoTs are ticking." This means in situations where the DoTs can’t tick (say those very short PvE fights, or sometimes in PvP) you are doubly punished since now those talents aren’t pulling their weight. The Shadow tree could benefit from more talents that affect all damage and not just the DoTs.

Q: Is it too easy to dispel DoTs right now?

Ghostcrawler: In a word, no. Priests of all specs used to benefit a lot more from “junk” buffs and debuffs to “protect” their spells than we typically allow these days. We just didn’t think that was an aspect of the game we really wanted to promote. Realizing how dependent Shadow is on DoTs though, we did recently buff the backlash from Vampiric Touch so you get some damage even if it is dispelled.

I’ve referenced a few times our desire to make the dispel game more fun and less frustrating, especially in PvP. Dispels shouldn’t totally negate your class abilities.

Also remember that all types of damage will be reduced to the current DoT level in 3.2 against targets with resilience. This means that overall the contribution of damage done by DoTs should go up.

Q: Are the developers happy with the functionality of Dispersion and is it considered to be an adequately valuable final talent in the Shadow tree?

Ghostcrawler: I think the key word here is “final” talent. Players have developed an expectation that the 51-point talent should be the best one in the tree; and for damage-dealing trees that means it’s expected these final talents do more damage than anything else the player has. That’s not really the way we design the trees though. Dispersion is a very valuable spell -- nearly all Shadow priests take it. It’s one of the best “not going to die now” spells in the game. Early on there was a perception that it was a PvP-only spell since it didn’t buff damage, but really it gets a lot of use in PvE as well (and not just for the mana regeneration).

Q: Would you consider removing the cast time for Mind Blast to make it a more desirable direct-damage spell given that it already has a cooldown?

Ghostcrawler: No. We’d be more likely to mess with the damage rather than the cast time. Obviously if the spell was no cooldown, no cast time then Shadow priests would not ever cast anything else -- it’s a great spell. So the trick is to keep it powerful while giving the player space to cast all those other Shadow priest spells as well. We honestly don’t want too many more instant-cast spells. That suggestion keeps coming up to handle interruptions in PvP and having to move in PvE. But we don’t want you to be able to opt out of those situations -- they are supposed to be challenges. If you’re looking for high direct damage with no cooldown, Mind Flay is supposed to be that spell.

Since this question was asked, I suspect, we have announced the healing debuff component to Mind Blast as well. That’s a nice PvP buff as well as making the spell in general more attractive.

Q: As many players report that Vampiric Embrace and Vampiric Touch lack viability in PvP settings and Vampiric Embrace tends to generate too much threat in PvE settings, are there any plans you can share to improve the functionality of these spells?

Ghostcrawler: Vampiric Touch does a lot of damage. I’d disagree that it lacks viability, and we even buffed the backlash damage a little more. I don’t think the possibility that a spell can be dispelled should be synonymous with lack of viability. It takes a little bit of set-up time to get all of them working in PvE and PvP, but that’s actually something we’re trying to push more classes and specs into instead of going to just instant, burst damage everywhere.

We can look at the Vampiric Embrace threat. That’s not feedback we hear often. Shadow priests pulling off of tanks doesn’t seem to be a widespread problem.

Q: How about increasing the range of Mind Flay?

Ghostcrawler: The glyph improves the range at the cost of the snare, which seems like a reasonable trade-off. We have discussed bumping damage and range, or possibly just removing the snare loss. It was put in as PvP protection early on in Lich King, but at this point we don’t think it would be a problem if the glyph just bumped the range without the penalty. It’s probably too conservative a glyph.

Q: Since Shadow priests focus solely on dealing Shadow damage, do you feel that they can potentially be crippled more easily than other casters who can focus on dealing considerable damage through multiple schools of magic?

Ghostcrawler: It’s just a feature of the class. Paladins have a lot of the same issues. We have discussed giving Shadow priests a Frost spell to use solely in emergency situations like this, but its niche would be only for school lock-out periods. We don’t want Shadow priests to be doing multiple types of damage overall. Now making it easier for Shadow priests to drop Shadowform and switch to healing or even Holy damage is something that we’ve mentioned lately on the boards. We could reduce the mana cost or the like.

Q: Shadow Word: Death was once a spell that priests used frequently in PvE, but has basically dropped off their bar. Are there any plans to improve this?

Ghostcrawler: We think Shadow priests have enough spells to manage as part of their rotation, so we don’t want to necessarily go back to them using it on cooldown. One thing we considered was having the backlash not fire if used on a target within Execute range. Another fix we’d like to make would prevent the backlash from being affected by boosts that improve your damage, as is typical during boss encounters -- your damage would be inflated without the risk of you one-shotting yourself.

Q: Have you considered providing a talent to increase the duration of Shadowfiend as a mana regeneration mechanic for longer boss fights?

Ghostcrawler: Priests don’t seem to have much of a mana problem on long boss fights, and our boss fights are not really all that long. You are supposed to run out of mana at some point. We’d be more likely to reduce the cooldown than increase the duration if it got to be a problem, since the duration would buff Shadowfiend damage as well.

Community Team: I think that last question provides a nice segue to focus on the healing niches priests fill using the Discipline and Holy trees.

Q: While their roles can vary significantly, what makes Discipline and Holy priests effective in a raid environment versus a PvP environment?

Ghostcrawler: The short answer is that Discipline can prevent damage with their shields and do a lot of healing on single targets. Holy on the other hand can group heal with Prayer of Healing and Circle of Healing. Despite our adding some PvP talents to Holy, Discipline is still really popular with players because of the survival talents and the way heals like Penance aren’t quite instant but are hard to interrupt just the same. One of the main priest roles in PvP is to use Dispel Magic and Discipline has many talents that key into it. When we go to improve Holy, things we want to improve are mana efficiency and burst healing.

Community Team: Many players assert that Greater Heal becomes less desirable as their gear continues to improve given the cast time and mana cost required, even with talent points in Serendipity.

Q: Do you feel that, given the risks and costs associated with using Greater Heal, it is sufficient in its current form; and are the benefits of Serendipity adequate?

Ghostcrawler: I think the only cost is the long cast time and the fact that the extra healing it provides isn’t often necessary. The scale is just off -- Flash Heal is big, so Greater Heal is just overkill. Combine this with the fact that there are other spells that are doing a lot of the healing that Greater Heal used to do -- Penance for example. I don’t think many players look at Greater Heal as being too expensive from a mana-per-healing standpoint. They often aren’t in danger of running out of mana. It’s also worth pointing out that max rank Greater Heal has always healed too much. The difference is that priests used to be able to cast down-ranked Greater Heals. We have considered offering say Lesser Heal as a literal 50% mana, 50% healing version of Greater Heal, but at the moment we’re having enough to do getting both Greater Heal and Flash Heal to get used.

Q: Similarly, do you feel that the comparative cast time and mana cost of Flash Heal is appropriate given the amount of healing it provides?

Ghostcrawler: It’s supposed to be an inefficient spell that gives you speed but at a high cost. The intent is that Greater Heal is the default heal a priest might cast, but then switch to a Flash Heal for those “oh snap” moments. Most fast heals in the game use this same model, with the exception of Flash of Light, which is mana-efficient but heals for a very small amount.

The problem is that in the current raid environment, speed is everything while mana isn’t nearly so scary. What I mean is that you are generally at a greater risk of failure through raid members dying than you are for healers going out of mana. The speed of Flash Heal just trumps other issues. Two other things complicate this issue. One is that heals in general are very large compared to health pools. This means that a Greater Heal often just over-heals for more. Second, in a raid in which healers don’t coordinate well it’s easy for other healers to stomp on your big, slow heals. While you are casting, someone heals your target for you. I’m not saying these are bad players -- in my experience it’s just the style of raid. Some players are really talkative and coordinated. “Big heal coming.” “I got Jimmy.” Or else everyone has their targets and won’t heal someone else unless something unpredictable happens. Other raids just heal anyone who is injured and don’t have a lot of assigned targets, except for probably the tanks. Both systems can work. The second one is going to get more use out of faster heals though.

Q: Have you considered reducing the 10-minute cooldown on Divine Hymn?

Ghostcrawler: It was balanced like Tranquility. We basically want these to be once-an-encounter spells. We have considered a mechanic that allows you to use the spell again in the case of a wipe, sort of the same way Bloodlust / Heroism works.

Q: Since Pain Suppression can easily be considered the life-saving mechanic of the Discipline tree, are there any possible improvements that could be made to this spell?

Ghostcrawler: Pain Suppression is more or less targeted Shield Wall. It’s really good.

Q: Lightwell isn’t a very desirable talent for most Holy priests given its current functionality; do you have any plans to improve its functionality?

Ghostcrawler: We’ve tried a lot of different implementations so far. The basic root of the problem is that most dps classes seem unwilling to have to take the time or spatial awareness to make use of the Lightwell, even if it provides great healing. Players will use Health Stones, but Lightwell crosses the line. We’re not entirely happy with that phenomenon in the game as a whole. We don’t like that dps characters focus on dps at the exclusion of even their own survival and just assume that’s the healer’s job (this is similar to the problem I mentioned a week or two ago where some tanks focus on survival and downplay threat or damage dealt). To be clear, Lightwell heals for a lot. The problem is just getting players to use it. Encounters currently are very fast-paced, in terms of both dps and healing required so you have trouble finding room to use it. If we do more encounters where healing is more about deciding who to heal (Firemaw or Shazzrah come to mind), then Lightwell would be amazing.

Q: Are there plans to ensure absorption mechanics are properly displayed and stored in the combat log in the near future?

Ghostcrawler: Technically, we can’t attribute absorption to the caster correctly. We know who cast the spell, but we can’t display easily which of the absorptions counts when there are multiple absorptions on a target. The change we made for 3.2 was to show how much damage was left on each absorption effect before and after the damage was done. This should allow third-party addons to figure out which absorb effect goes with which caster and properly credit them for it. The answer, I suspect they will find, is that shields actually prevent a lot of damage. We have seen priests prevent as much damage as they healed.

Q: In the spirit of similar changes made to other class mechanics recently, how about combining Dispel Magic and Dispel Disease into one spell serving both functions?

Ghostcrawler: We think that pushes dispels too far into easy mode. As I said above though, the dispel mechanic in PvP needs work. I suspect the original idea was that you’d want to dispel magic, curses, diseases and poison, but in reality dispelling magic is what you care about most of the time. Poison you might care about were it not so easy to reapply. But again, a somewhat persuasive argument (which doesn’t mean we’re automatically going to do it) is that a superior PvP system might be that you can dispel crowd control and the occasional protective spell, and that’s it.

Q: Is it necessary that dispels can miss?

Ghostcrawler: It really only misses in PvE for the simple reason that bosses are usually 3 levels higher than you. This is annoying and we don’t really want healers to have to worry about being hit-capped. We don’t have an easy change in hand for this problem though -- it requires a code fix.

Q: Would you consider increasing or removing altogether the charges of Inner Fire?

Ghostcrawler: At that point it just becomes a passive buff and we might as well just say that priests have the armor of a leather-wearer while wearing cloth. It works a little better for mages and warlocks who are at least making a decision about which armor spell to cast. If we go ahead and add alternatives to Inner Fire ("Outer Fire"! "Inner Shadow!") then we might take off the charges. Certainly the spell requires a lot less micromanagement now than it used to.


Edited, Aug 4th 2009 12:58am by IDrownFish
#2 Aug 04 2009 at 5:59 AM Rating: Good
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4,684 posts
Quote:
Q: While their roles can vary significantly, what makes Discipline and Holy priests effective in a raid environment versus a PvP environment?

Ghostcrawler: The short answer is that Discipline can prevent damage with their shields and do a lot of healing on single targets. Holy on the other hand can group heal with Prayer of Healing and Circle of Healing. Despite our adding some PvP talents to Holy, Discipline is still really popular with players because of the survival talents and the way heals like Penance aren’t quite instant but are hard to interrupt just the same. One of the main priest roles in PvP is to use Dispel Magic and Discipline has many talents that key into it. When we go to improve Holy, things we want to improve are mana efficiency and burst healing.

I feel they've hit their hammer right next to the nail here. The 'problem' of the priest in PvP is that they have very few kiting measures and are going to get stomped constantly - especially by rogues and warriors. It is exactly because of this that they need the survivability disc gives them. Priests are basically resto druids without the ability to kite right now. Unless they give holy some kind of obscene burst healing talent (ie. allow ProM to 'jump' back to yourself if nobody else is in range) it's simply not going to add up to the awesomeness that is Power Word: Shield. What they, in my opinion, should do, is give holy a huge increase in kiting abilities. Turn them into non-tree resto druids, and don't buff a holy priests' PvP endurance too much from where it is now. If they choose to go about it this way discipline and holy would be comparable to a mage's frost and arcane trees, a rogues' assassination and subtlety trees. If they don't go the way of mobility they need to completely homogenize the holy tree to give it 90% the same buffs as the disc tree to make it work.

Quote:
Community Team: Many players assert that Greater Heal becomes less desirable as their gear continues to improve given the cast time and mana cost required, even with talent points in Serendipity.

Q: Do you feel that, given the risks and costs associated with using Greater Heal, it is sufficient in its current form; and are the benefits of Serendipity adequate?

Ghostcrawler: I think the only cost is the long cast time and the fact that the extra healing it provides isn’t often necessary. The scale is just off -- Flash Heal is big, so Greater Heal is just overkill. Combine this with the fact that there are other spells that are doing a lot of the healing that Greater Heal used to do -- Penance for example. I don’t think many players look at Greater Heal as being too expensive from a mana-per-healing standpoint. They often aren’t in danger of running out of mana. It’s also worth pointing out that max rank Greater Heal has always healed too much. The difference is that priests used to be able to cast down-ranked Greater Heals. We have considered offering say Lesser Heal as a literal 50% mana, 50% healing version of Greater Heal, but at the moment we’re having enough to do getting both Greater Heal and Flash Heal to get used.

Wrong again. It's not just the scale that's off. The problem is that Greater Heal *does* suck ******** if you don't completely spec for it. And to spec for it you need to put all your points in holy, which is exactly the tree that doesn't really benefit from having a strong Greater Heal. Serendipity was a really welcome change, but by giving disc Penance and turning holy into the AOE healing tree they've effectively bitten themselves in the behind. The only two ways I can see Greater Heal get back into action is if A) existing disc talents are modified to give it buffs; Penances increased cooldown combined with a kickass Gheal for disc priests could bring them up to paladin HPS levels, or if B) it gets a little extra oomph through holy talents (leave a shield, perhaps, for example) and finds its way into holy PvP.

Quote:
Q: Since Pain Suppression can easily be considered the life-saving mechanic of the Discipline tree, are there any possible improvements that could be made to this spell?

Ghostcrawler: Pain Suppression is more or less targeted Shield Wall. It’s really good.

I've said it before and I will say it again: there is only one tiny buff Pain Suppression needs - IT NEEDS TO BE OFF THE DAMN GLOBAL COOLDOWN! You don't want to know how often I've thrown it on a low HP tank only to have him die 1,5 second later.

Quote:
Q: Lightwell isn’t a very desirable talent for most Holy priests given its current functionality; do you have any plans to improve its functionality?

Ghostcrawler: We’ve tried a lot of different implementations so far. The basic root of the problem is that most dps classes seem unwilling to have to take the time or spatial awareness to make use of the Lightwell, even if it provides great healing. Players will use Health Stones, but Lightwell crosses the line. We’re not entirely happy with that phenomenon in the game as a whole. We don’t like that dps characters focus on dps at the exclusion of even their own survival and just assume that’s the healer’s job (this is similar to the problem I mentioned a week or two ago where some tanks focus on survival and downplay threat or damage dealt). To be clear, Lightwell heals for a lot. The problem is just getting players to use it. Encounters currently are very fast-paced, in terms of both dps and healing required so you have trouble finding room to use it. If we do more encounters where healing is more about deciding who to heal (Firemaw or Shazzrah come to mind), then Lightwell would be amazing.

Lolwell, where do I begin? I wish Blizz would give up on it already, it isn't going to work. If they want hardmodes to require such obscene amounts of DPS, then yes, survival of your DPSers IS the healers' job. You can hotkey a Healthstone, but a proper DPS simply won't have the time to go strut around and look for a Lightwell. The only way I could see this work is if it worked like the shaman's healing stream totem, doing small (~5K) heals every X seconds.

Quote:
Q: Would you consider increasing or removing altogether the charges of Inner Fire?

Ghostcrawler: At that point it just becomes a passive buff and we might as well just say that priests have the armor of a leather-wearer while wearing cloth. It works a little better for mages and warlocks who are at least making a decision about which armor spell to cast. If we go ahead and add alternatives to Inner Fire ("Outer Fire"! "Inner Shadow!") then we might take off the charges. Certainly the spell requires a lot less micromanagement now than it used to.

I agree with blizz here. The only buff I'd like to see to the spell is some kind of talent that would rebuff it automatically after a Renew (or even Fortitude). It seems a little too costly to reapply to me currently, given that you lose a GCD.


All in all, I'm kind of cold towards this Q&A. Blizz didn't fail as bad as they sometimes do on other classes (Backstab is your main attack ability in raids - lolwut?), but there seems to be very little interesting news in there. I think they're going about holy PvP the wrong way, they insist on giving Lightwell yet another try and they don't seem to realize that they themselves ****** up Gheal. All I'm glad about is that they're hiting at removing the no snare penalty of mind flay (more range *and* snare should make shadow a lot more survivable), but seeing as I don't play shadow I can't get too worked up about it.
#3 Aug 04 2009 at 6:39 AM Rating: Decent
Bored at work so here goes

tl;dr Not impressed with the Q&A, Don't know why I thought I would.
This read more like a "FAQ: Here is what a priest is."

:(

Blizzard wrote:
Q: Is it too easy to dispel DoTs right now?

Ghostcrawler: In a word, no.


wat?

Blizzard wrote:
Dispels shouldn’t totally negate your class abilities.


I KNOW RIGHT?

Blizzard wrote:

Players have developed an expectation that the 51-point talent should be the best one in the tree; and for damage-dealing trees that means it’s expected these final talents do more damage than anything else the player has. That’s not really the way we design the trees though.


warlocks,warriors,paladins,mages, death knights, rogue, hunters would all like to have a word with you. Disc priest/holy priest/resto shaman/resto druid also think their 51 pt talent is nifty.


Blizzard wrote:
Dispersion is a very valuable spell -- nearly all Shadow priests take it


LOL...see guys its good because you pick it up
/facepalm

I read this in the pvp q&A he did, I didn't think he would say that garbage again.

blizzard wrote:
but really it(Dispersion) gets a lot of use in PvE as well (and not just for the mana regeneration).


Yah if you make mistakes or have bad healers


blizzard wrote:
Q: Would you consider removing the cast time for Mind Blast to make it a more desirable direct-damage spell given that it already has a cooldown?

Ghostcrawler: No (We already gave paladin's two of these but you can't have one)

confused ghostcrawler wrote:

Obviously if the spell was no cooldown

who said that?? I mean that's not even answering the question that was asked, that's changing it form to a pre-made answer.

Blizzard wrote:
Q: Shadow Word: Death was once a spell that priests used frequently in PvE, but has basically dropped off their bar. Are there any plans to improve this?

Quote:
Ghostcrawler: We think Shadow priests have enough spells to manage as part of their rotation, so we don’t want to necessarily go back to them using it on cooldown.


WHAT? I'm sure no one minds having a useful spell to add! Just say you don't know how to make it scale well without being a nuke button that you don't want priests to have for some reason.

Blizzard wrote:
Q: Have you considered providing a talent to increase the duration of Shadowfiend as a mana regeneration mechanic for longer boss fights?


Since mana is a JOKE on boss fights the question should have been


Smoopie wrote:
Q: Have you considered providing a talent to increase snare resistance of Shadowfiend as a mana regeneration mechanic for pvp?




blizzard wrote:

Q: Have you considered reducing the 10-minute cooldown on Divine Hymn?

Ghostcrawler: It was balanced like Tranquility

o'rly?? Can I trade mine in?

blizzard wrote:

Q: Since Pain Suppression can easily be considered the life-saving mechanic of the Discipline tree, are there any possible improvements that could be made to this spell?

Ghostcrawler: Pain Suppression is more or less targeted Shield Wall. It’s really good.


I guess this question was asked so the devs could shine a light on disc and let everyone know they are a viable spec. seriously though what kind of question is that, what player would ask if PS can be buffed..lol


Blizzard wrote:
the problem is that most dps classes seem unwilling to have to take the time or spatial awareness to make use of the Lightwell



More like the problem is its a clunky mechanic that is a waste of time and effort. Not to mention some fights there is kind of a lot going on.


Q: Would you consider increasing or removing altogether the charges of Inner Fire?

Ghostcrawler: At that point it just becomes a passive buff
Like druids,mages,locks? kthx

Certainly the spell requires a lot less micromanagement now than it used to
Yah it gets eaten up in 3 seconds of any arena match, but it takes no micromanagement. ????


Edited, Aug 4th 2009 10:40am by Smoopie
#4 Aug 04 2009 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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513 posts
As a shadow priest for 25 man raids, none of this hurts or helps. I use dispersion while questing so I can run to the next group of mobs instead of drinking.

As for disc, I never use GHeal anymore. Takes to long to cast. I use penance, flash heal, and POM and renew. Only time those don't work is when I end up with 3 tanks in a 5 man group. Gah, dps can be dense sometimes.
#5 Aug 04 2009 at 12:43 PM Rating: Good
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679 posts
I love it when they talk about dispersion. The fact that they say that a lot of shadow priests take the talent means its good as far as they can tell. When we get the next batch of shadow talents I wonder how many priests will have a great big hole in their spec where dispersion used to be...
#6 Aug 04 2009 at 12:52 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
I love it when they talk about dispersion. The fact that they say that a lot of shadow priests take the talent means its good as far as they can tell. When we get the next batch of shadow talents I wonder how many priests will have a great big hole in their spec where dispersion used to be...


You'de need a few thousand to do it.

I've found uses for dispersion in ulduar, but nothing game breaking. Just more of, oh I guess i'll evocate now. Or "LOL whoops wrong way"

I haven't really been enjoying my dps with shadow in litch king, sure AoE packs are fun but on single target boss fights I just feel so weak compared to every single other dps spec

That being said I could prob play the spec better, but still. I haven't really seen many spriests in my raids lately either...

#7 Aug 04 2009 at 1:06 PM Rating: Decent
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104 posts
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Ghostcrawler: I think the only cost is the long cast time and the fact that the extra healing it provides isn’t often necessary. The scale is just off -- Flash Heal is big, so Greater Heal is just overkill. Combine this with the fact that there are other spells that are doing a lot of the healing that Greater Heal used to do -- Penance for example. I don’t think many players look at Greater Heal as being too expensive from a mana-per-healing standpoint. They often aren’t in danger of running out of mana. It’s also worth pointing out that max rank Greater Heal has always healed too much. The difference is that priests used to be able to cast down-ranked Greater Heals. We have considered offering say Lesser Heal as a literal 50% mana, 50% healing version of Greater Heal, but at the moment we’re having enough to do getting both Greater Heal and Flash Heal to get used.

I refuse to touch greater heal. It's not that I've a fear of overhealing like he seems to be implying, it's just that damage tends to be so spiky. I've seen a tank go from 90% to dead in the time it took to get it off (I don't really recall this happening in BC, but then again I didn't finish leveling my healer til a few months before WotLK and only got to do Gruuls/Mag/ZA).

It may be my distaste for haste, but I'd much rather waste my mana keeping the tank/raid topped off by spamming flash heal and PoM. If they would bring back a lesser heal (2 sec cast time), which is a bit faster then Gheal(3 sec cast time), I would most likely use it.

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The problem is that in the current raid environment, speed is everything while mana isn’t nearly so scary. What I mean is that you are generally at a greater risk of failure through raid members dying than you are for healers going out of mana. The speed of Flash Heal just trumps other issues. Two other things complicate this issue. One is that heals in general are very large compared to health pools. This means that a Greater Heal often just over-heals for more. Second, in a raid in which healers don’t coordinate well it’s easy for other healers to stomp on your big, slow heals. While you are casting, someone heals your target for you. I’m not saying these are bad players -- in my experience it’s just the style of raid. Some players are really talkative and coordinated. “Big heal coming.” “I got Jimmy.” Or else everyone has their targets and won’t heal someone else unless something unpredictable happens. Other raids just heal anyone who is injured and don’t have a lot of assigned targets, except for probably the tanks. Both systems can work. The second one is going to get more use out of faster heals though.

It almost sounds like they want greater heals to be cast like how complete heals were used for years in EQ, multiple healers counting down and casting in a rotation. The only fight I could see it being effective is patchwork, as most fights you have to be reactive to the AE damage taken by the dps, have to dodge firewalls or pancakes of death that are cast on the ground, etc.

As the lead designer, you'd think he'd change the encounters if he didn't like the current fight dynamics. If you don't keep people topped off you run the risk of wiping the raid. I'd rather not be the healer that was responsible for a late heal.

....

Greater heal is pretty much a joke because of the cast time, the half dozen or so priests I talk with don't bother with it. Divine hymn never really seemed all that great to me. I tried it once and took it off my bars. Lightwell has always been a running joke. The dps have enough to worry about between doing their job, avoiding the stupid gimmicks of the various fights, and beating the enrage timers.
#8 Aug 04 2009 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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Greater heal is pretty much a joke because of the cast time, the half dozen or so priests I talk with don't bother with it. Divine hymn never really seemed all that great to me. I tried it once and took it off my bars. Lightwell has always been a running joke. The dps have enough to worry about between doing their job, avoiding the stupid gimmicks of the various fights, and beating the enrage timers.


The only way they're ever going to get back to people using greater heal is to smooth out tank damage and have it happen in smaller, more rapid chunks. This is something they probably won't do however, they have already said they're not a fan of people feeling the need to use stopcasting macros and bla bla bla....

Divine hymn on the other hand is a spell I really really like. Its a great clutch heal, and I've been know to use it as shadow in emergencies when healers die, or the raid takes a massive burst of damage for some reason. For a spell that costs 2000 mana and heals maybe 60k depending on crits etc its a nice cooldown to have.

Lightwell on the other hand is something they'll never be able to fix. Short of making it an automated healing beacon like healing stream totem that does something like throw minor heals to people nearby noone will ever use it. I even laughed a little when I read what they said about how dps wouldn't consider using it because it lowers their numbers. If they think they can ever change that aspect of mentality in a dpser I would be most surprised, chances are this will remain a useless spell forever unless it is entirely reworked.
#9 Aug 05 2009 at 9:40 AM Rating: Good
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606 posts
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Lightwell on the other hand is something they'll never be able to fix. Short of making it an automated healing beacon like healing stream totem that does something like throw minor heals to people nearby noone will ever use it. I even laughed a little when I read what they said about how dps wouldn't consider using it because it lowers their numbers. If they think they can ever change that aspect of mentality in a dpser I would be most surprised, chances are this will remain a useless spell forever unless it is entirely reworked.


NPC's in the new 5 man have a light well that 'shoots' heals at the group. If we had THAT, it might be worthwhile. But bliz wont give us that one, but for NPC's, sure....
#10 Aug 05 2009 at 10:02 AM Rating: Good
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513 posts
Well, since the patch came out I went and healed the new Argent Tournemant instances. The additional 2 sec cooldown on penance blows. That used to be my main heal on the tank, but now it isn't available soon enough to keep tank up. grrrrrrrrrrrrr

I had to put Gheal back on the bar for use in between the cooldown on penance. Makes me a sad panda. I might just use penance as the "oh ****" heal on someone who takes quick spike damage. Like my rogues yesterday who got insta killed in that new instance...

Course we didn't know what to expect so lots of ppl took more damage than normal till we got it figured out. It was fun.

More experimentation needed here.
#11 Aug 05 2009 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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4,684 posts
I don't understand the constant pissing on Dispersion. I'll agree that for a 51-pointer, it sucks, but GC is right when he says that the thing itself really isn't a bad talent. A thing (shadow) priests seriously lack in PvP is mobility; you are going to whacked up the head a lot. An unspecced priest does NOT have a vanish/ice block/bubble AT ALL. Which is what makes Dispersion valuable.

What I can agree in is that for spriests to be of any use in PvP again Dispersion would have to be baseline (though this might make disc priests seriously overpowered) and they'd need to get some kind of awesome 51-pointer (dispel immunity to SW:P and Devouring plague for example, or some kind of speed bonus when using fade). What I cannot agree with is that Dispersion as a talent/skill sucks.
#12 Aug 06 2009 at 1:30 AM Rating: Good
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679 posts
I think the main complaint about dispersion is that there is a lack of worthwhile talents for pve players to spend points on. For pvp of course, its the only choice, but then, you don't see a lot of shadowpriests in pvp these days because everyone knows you can crush them in no time.
#13 Aug 08 2009 at 12:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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FFS. Take Lightwell AWAY. Put something useful there. It's way too far down the tree to be a useless spot nobody takes.

As expected, most of these aren't even questions.
Blizz: GC, it seems that priests have healing spells. Do you plan to continue having priests heal?
GC: Yes, yes we do.
Blizz: GC, what kind of damage will shadow priests do in the future?
GC: Shadow priests do shadow damage, and we intend to have them keep doing shadow damage.
#14 Aug 09 2009 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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I couldn't agree more really on Lightwell, Tea (though I think I've already mentioned it). Blizzard is known for trying to be innovative and thoughtful, and because of that I can see why they've stuck with the idea of spells like Lightwell for so long. It's just that in this case, Blizz has been going "Just a little tweaking, next patch it'll be cool" since what, pre-TBC? They simply need to face the fact that their idea has failed and that Lightwell is not going to work - it either needs a major overhaul (and then I don't mean extra healing done or "we'll have it break less easy" - those two things should've been there from the start) or it needs to be replaced all together.

Seeing as news on priests has been quiet since WOTLK's launch (which is something I'm not holding against Blizzard after the awesome job they did on the discipline tree), I reckon a worthwhile talent in Lightwell's spot would be a decent trinket for the next patch.
#15 Aug 09 2009 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
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679 posts
To be honest, I quite like the idea of having a utility spell like lightwell somewhere in the holy tree. The thing about that sort of spell is that you need to make it do something useful, and not be a burden to use whilst simultaneously not breaking pve and pvp. Its not an easy thing to do. Personally, if I was redesigning that spell I'd go in a somewhat different direction.

I'd do something like this:
Creates a usable (instant click) beacon which links the health of up to 5 players. Players must remain within x yards to remain tethered to the lightwell. Players taking damage will have up to y damage shared amongst other tethered players (y being influenced by the spellpower of the casting priest). The damage sharing effect cannot be triggered more than once every z seconds.

That sort of mechanic would be kind of cool, its like a reworked version of the shaman link spell that was suggested before wrath. Its the sort of thing that would take some work to use effectively, but would provide a tangible benefit in certain situations. You can see how you could fiddle with the variables to balance the spell and so forth.
#16 Aug 09 2009 at 5:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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thegreatmothra wrote:
That sort of mechanic would be kind of cool.


It would be very cool. Then again, the current mechanic is sort of cool too (though not as cool as your idea). But both share the same fundamental problem: they leave people in charge of their own healing. And people are dumb.

If you made it like a totem where it just sort of healed people automagically every x seconds or something without them having to do anything or know it's there, that'd be okay. Otherwise, get rid of it and gimme a new spell.
#17 Aug 10 2009 at 8:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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717 posts
They could attach some sort of dps buff to lolwell. Extend the time on it and add an AP and/or SP buff that lasts for the duration of the heal. Nothing game breaking, just enough to make it desirable for dps to click it. Something like a 5-10% bonus for the duration of the heal. It certainly has extremely limited usefulness in the game as it stands.

Perhaps this has been discussed and discarded, but something certainly should be done about it.
#18 Aug 10 2009 at 9:18 AM Rating: Decent
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But both share the same fundamental problem: they leave people in charge of their own healing. And people are dumb.


I disagree with that, really. Of course it depends on how the spell is implemented, but it could work just like eg. Pain Suppression ("incoming plasma blast, PS please") or even Healthstones ("Ranged group use lightwell to lower the effect of barrages please.") work right now. You just need an easier way to activate it. Clicking could even work if the range was increased.

That said, my vote would still go for the 3 min CD talent that makes your next spell an AOE cast. I've forgotten whoever suggested that but it's still the epitome of awesomeness. Would work splendidly with shield in tough situations (yes, even as holy) or even utilistic/aggressive spells like dispel.
#19 Aug 10 2009 at 10:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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717 posts
Mozared wrote:
Quote:
But both share the same fundamental problem: they leave people in charge of their own healing. And people are dumb.


I disagree with that, really. Of course it depends on how the spell is implemented, but it could work just like eg. Pain Suppression ("incoming plasma blast, PS please") or even Healthstones ("Ranged group use lightwell to lower the effect of barrages please.") work right now. You just need an easier way to activate it. Clicking could even work if the range was increased.

That said, my vote would still go for the 3 min CD talent that makes your next spell an AOE cast. I've forgotten whoever suggested that but it's still the epitome of awesomeness. Would work splendidly with shield in tough situations (yes, even as holy) or even utilistic/aggressive spells like dispel.

Soooo... Now you want to send all the melee over the edge on Kologarn!!? =D
#20 Aug 10 2009 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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I’d add a haste effect to Lightwell’s HoT, enough to give back the 1.5 seconds it takes players to click it.
#21 Aug 11 2009 at 1:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Soooo... Now you want to send all the melee over the edge on Kologarn!!? =D


You always give me the feeling that Holy is a lot more of an evil spec than Shadow, Try...

That said, even a better idea (though it would probably be better for disc); an AOE ally speed increasing ability that lasts for a short time. To get those DPSers out of the fire quickly.
#22 Aug 11 2009 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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104 posts
There are a few fights where lightwell could actually be rather useful. An example would be Deconstructor in Ulduar, lightwell would be perfect for the gravity bombs. I could probably find other uses out of it if I really wanted to, but I'd rather not waste the talent point on such a niche spell.

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You always give me the feeling that Holy is a lot more of an evil spec than Shadow, Try...

Ohh it is...

Holy in Naxx is especially fun. Casting Guardian Spirit on yourself and running into a slime at frogger in Naxx while nearby someone is extremely fun. As is casting levitate on yourself, and then rezzing people that die to frogger into the slime .
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