Hello again fellow Death Knights! As I just dinged 78 on my DK I'm nearing the magic ding from which point I'll start to get into BG's. I've already looked up PvP specs on ArenaJunkies (even though they're outdated) since EJ seems to have nothing on the matter, but I still have a couple of questions. I was just wondering if you lot here might have an answer to them.
First of all, what is the major difference between Blood, Frost and Unholy? I have so far played a Blood PvE DPS spec and an Unholy tanking spec, but I have no clue what their pros and cons are in PvP. For a rogue you could at least say that Mutilate sacrificed mobility Shadowstep has, but DK's in PvP seem to be really hazy for me. It looks to me as if Blood sucks, Frost has more CC and Unholy focuses a little more on defense. How correct is that?
Second, what's the deal with playing a 'tank' in PvP? In a similar fashion to prot warriors, that is. Is it viable, or do you have to focus primarily on DPS to stand any chance?
Third, have a look at my WIP spec, if you will. I don't need a perfect arena cookie cutter just yet - I'll be BG farming once I reach 80 to get more familiar with DK PvP and will soon enough notice the cons and pros of blood (which I seem to prefer above Unholy in a damage role), but I wouldn't mind comment on any obvious things I missed. The build is a spinoff from what apperantly is the Cookie cutter Blood/Frost spec (Might not be 100% accurate, it's close to what I found on AJ but the site is bugged). I was somewhat confused as to why the only Blood PvP build I found goes that far into frost just to get a free Obliterate crit - to me it seems more logical to put those points in Unholy and vastly improve my best anti-kiting method and make it easier to keep my diseases up. Am I wrong here?
Last but not least, do any of you have any other tips? Are there any common pitfalls I need to avoid?
Regardless, thanks for reading my post, I hope your answers can bring some more clarity into my head.
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Death Knight PvP (Mostly specs talk)Follow
blood vs frost vs unholy comes down to survivability (via self-healing) vs control/frost damage and good burst aoe vs shadow damage, a nice pet, some area denial abilities and high magic/disease damage.
each has their pros and cons, but of them, blood tends to be on the bottom because its almost completely physical damage. this means you need a lot of ArP to be successful, which is a stat you cant really afford to stack in pvp (even as a DK). plus you have to sacrifice a major glyph spot for a reliable snare (heart strike glyph). you get a lot of survivability due to death strike being a main part of your rotation, and vampiric blood + blood worms + rune tap can be a huge amount of burst healing. combine with draenei racial and herbalism for even more healing power. in short, blood dks can be very hard to kill, but they tend not to be able to apply a lot of pressure, and they lack in control.
frost comes with the only true CC for the death knight (hungering cold) as well as the highest burst aoe you can find in the form of howling blast (minor glyphed corpse explosion can come close, but requires wayyyy too many conditions to be practical in pvp....altho it IS fun in AV). still, thanks to killing machine and rime procs, howling blast is quite useful, and being able to CC everyone in a 10 yard radius for 10s every minute is nothing to scoff at either. in frost presence with unbreakable armor up youre pretty much immune to most white damage and almost all DoT effects while its up, and frost strike can hit like a god damned truck (being nerfed next patch tho). chilblains is annoying; frost fever lasts longer than the snare, so youll find yourself overlapping your frost runes with a CoI or IT every 10s. being able to spread an aoe snare with pestilence is nice sometimes tho.
unholy gives you the highest magic damage in the form of ebon plaguebringer, some area denial with AMZ and desecration, and the extra utility of having a pet that can keep people in combat, do decent dps, and most importantly, stun for 3 out of every 30 seconds. AMZ can take some classes and completely destroy their damage under the right circumstances, as well as protect teammates from coordinated burst (i.e. vs an RMP team or something). scourge strike hits quite hard as well, and wandering plague + pestilence means you can get a lot of aoe damage going with diseases, which is good for putting pressure on healers who cant heal multiple targets at once very effectively (druids, paladins). bone shield provides some nice fire-and-forget protection, but the burst healing of blood and the longer IBF of frost is something to be missed. desecration is my favorite of the snare effects; its the only one druids have a lot of trouble shifting out of. it also makes life generally difficult for all other enemies nearby.
my personal preference has me as unholy most of the time, with a frost pvp build for times when im feeling the need for more CC or if im running with my unholy DK buddy. ultimately tho, i find unholy/blood to be my general pvp build, both for arena and bgs (altho to be fair its more of a bg build than a pure arena one). good survivability with rune tap, ibf and bone shield, the ghoul for more utility, glyph of rune tap for some extra group healing every 30s (10% can save lives sometimes) and high damage hits from scourge strike, as well as strong overall pressure with gargoyle, ghoul and diseases.
DK's kinda tank by virtue of chains of ice, at least when it comes to melee. if you can chains a melee next to you, and you dont mind sacrificing your FU moves, then you can keep them on you literally until you die or they die. theyre forced to engage you at that point unless they have some kind of escape mechanism (shadowstep, freedom, charge/intercept). saving death grip for the right time alleviates a lot of that (warriors become the only problem, pallies need a dispeller, but all that can be worked around with some good skill usage).
blood tap is your friend. i use that skill religously, altho it took me awhile to incorporate it.
um, also, its better to IBF early than not IBF at all, especially vs pallies and if you think a rogue is around. a combination of DnD + horn of winter will give you enough runic power to IBF if youre at 0, and most pallies will open with a stun in BG's to try and get some kind of damage advantage.
strangulate works on other DK's; it'll keep them from doing anything but strikes. this means no rune tap, no icy touch, no IBF, AMS, AMZ, death coil, DnD, death grip, strangulate, chains of ice or blood boil.
if you use army of the dead, do yourself a favor and AMS before hand. try to IBF too. that means only physical interrupts will work on you (pummel, kick, shield bash, feral charge).
mind freeze, frost strike and scourge strike are considered magic effects. as such, having a certain amount of spell pen is nice (135 is the accepted number, which is five blue-quality spell pen gems (stormy sky sapphire iirc) and a spell pen enchant to cloak). this ensures no random mind freezes get resisted, and keeps resistances from taking off a chunk of your SS or FS damage. also, since these three effects are considered magic, they go thru physical immunity, i.e. hand of protection. howling blast and icy touch are also magic damage, in case you happen to not be in range to use FS or SS. chains of ice is also magic if you need to snare someone.
making a blood tap > frost presence macro probably isnt a bad idea; it helps deal with target swaps in arena quite nicely by ensuring you can swap a presence without getting tripped up by rune CD's. in fact, having that for any clutch ability isnt a horrible idea (use your discretion of course).
thats all i can think of.
Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 4:03am by Quor
each has their pros and cons, but of them, blood tends to be on the bottom because its almost completely physical damage. this means you need a lot of ArP to be successful, which is a stat you cant really afford to stack in pvp (even as a DK). plus you have to sacrifice a major glyph spot for a reliable snare (heart strike glyph). you get a lot of survivability due to death strike being a main part of your rotation, and vampiric blood + blood worms + rune tap can be a huge amount of burst healing. combine with draenei racial and herbalism for even more healing power. in short, blood dks can be very hard to kill, but they tend not to be able to apply a lot of pressure, and they lack in control.
frost comes with the only true CC for the death knight (hungering cold) as well as the highest burst aoe you can find in the form of howling blast (minor glyphed corpse explosion can come close, but requires wayyyy too many conditions to be practical in pvp....altho it IS fun in AV). still, thanks to killing machine and rime procs, howling blast is quite useful, and being able to CC everyone in a 10 yard radius for 10s every minute is nothing to scoff at either. in frost presence with unbreakable armor up youre pretty much immune to most white damage and almost all DoT effects while its up, and frost strike can hit like a god damned truck (being nerfed next patch tho). chilblains is annoying; frost fever lasts longer than the snare, so youll find yourself overlapping your frost runes with a CoI or IT every 10s. being able to spread an aoe snare with pestilence is nice sometimes tho.
unholy gives you the highest magic damage in the form of ebon plaguebringer, some area denial with AMZ and desecration, and the extra utility of having a pet that can keep people in combat, do decent dps, and most importantly, stun for 3 out of every 30 seconds. AMZ can take some classes and completely destroy their damage under the right circumstances, as well as protect teammates from coordinated burst (i.e. vs an RMP team or something). scourge strike hits quite hard as well, and wandering plague + pestilence means you can get a lot of aoe damage going with diseases, which is good for putting pressure on healers who cant heal multiple targets at once very effectively (druids, paladins). bone shield provides some nice fire-and-forget protection, but the burst healing of blood and the longer IBF of frost is something to be missed. desecration is my favorite of the snare effects; its the only one druids have a lot of trouble shifting out of. it also makes life generally difficult for all other enemies nearby.
my personal preference has me as unholy most of the time, with a frost pvp build for times when im feeling the need for more CC or if im running with my unholy DK buddy. ultimately tho, i find unholy/blood to be my general pvp build, both for arena and bgs (altho to be fair its more of a bg build than a pure arena one). good survivability with rune tap, ibf and bone shield, the ghoul for more utility, glyph of rune tap for some extra group healing every 30s (10% can save lives sometimes) and high damage hits from scourge strike, as well as strong overall pressure with gargoyle, ghoul and diseases.
Quote:
Second, what's the deal with playing a 'tank' in PvP? In a similar fashion to prot warriors, that is. Is it viable, or do you have to focus primarily on DPS to stand any chance?
DK's kinda tank by virtue of chains of ice, at least when it comes to melee. if you can chains a melee next to you, and you dont mind sacrificing your FU moves, then you can keep them on you literally until you die or they die. theyre forced to engage you at that point unless they have some kind of escape mechanism (shadowstep, freedom, charge/intercept). saving death grip for the right time alleviates a lot of that (warriors become the only problem, pallies need a dispeller, but all that can be worked around with some good skill usage).
Quote:
Last but not least, do any of you have any other tips? Are there any common pitfalls I need to avoid?
blood tap is your friend. i use that skill religously, altho it took me awhile to incorporate it.
um, also, its better to IBF early than not IBF at all, especially vs pallies and if you think a rogue is around. a combination of DnD + horn of winter will give you enough runic power to IBF if youre at 0, and most pallies will open with a stun in BG's to try and get some kind of damage advantage.
strangulate works on other DK's; it'll keep them from doing anything but strikes. this means no rune tap, no icy touch, no IBF, AMS, AMZ, death coil, DnD, death grip, strangulate, chains of ice or blood boil.
if you use army of the dead, do yourself a favor and AMS before hand. try to IBF too. that means only physical interrupts will work on you (pummel, kick, shield bash, feral charge).
mind freeze, frost strike and scourge strike are considered magic effects. as such, having a certain amount of spell pen is nice (135 is the accepted number, which is five blue-quality spell pen gems (stormy sky sapphire iirc) and a spell pen enchant to cloak). this ensures no random mind freezes get resisted, and keeps resistances from taking off a chunk of your SS or FS damage. also, since these three effects are considered magic, they go thru physical immunity, i.e. hand of protection. howling blast and icy touch are also magic damage, in case you happen to not be in range to use FS or SS. chains of ice is also magic if you need to snare someone.
making a blood tap > frost presence macro probably isnt a bad idea; it helps deal with target swaps in arena quite nicely by ensuring you can swap a presence without getting tripped up by rune CD's. in fact, having that for any clutch ability isnt a horrible idea (use your discretion of course).
thats all i can think of.
Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 4:03am by Quor
Quor, I'd like a link to your Unholy build. I'm wobbling between Unholy and Frost at the moment. For some reason, Frost appeals more to me, but I've also experienced the awesome that is Scourge Strike and I can't seem to discard the fond memories of two-shotting stuff.
Also, don't underestimate the power of Desecration. Spam that crap and you'll force your opponent to disconnect. Especially in Alterac Valley during clashes.
Also, don't underestimate the power of Desecration. Spam that crap and you'll force your opponent to disconnect. Especially in Alterac Valley during clashes.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
lol @ the desecration remark. thats a creative use of game mechanics so to speak, but i know what youre talking about. ive got a pretty robust computer, but i start to chug in any kind of large-scale combat where lots of pretty flashy lights start going off. lord knows desecration doesnt help (but it is fun snaring 20+ people in the stormpike pass with it).
as for my build, this is what im using:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jbIMacZZfMMIzbdLIqRssuz:rbhcmV
like i said about, its more of a bg build. of the talents in it, corpse explosion is probably the most useless, but i will say theres a certain kind of fun to blowing up bodies in a tightly packed melee in AV or AB. the combination of AMZ, better AMS and rune tap gives me a lot of survivability, which is important in bg pvp even if you run with friends, because you never know when you might get separated or run into a rogue who decides hes gonna blow alllll his CD's on lucky little you. i use this as my pve dps build too, and manage to make about 2800ish single target dps in 25-mans. obviously i could do better with a better build, but my off-spec is frost pvp, which is another way of saying im not too worried about pve.
ive seen another unholy build used by a few dks with a more arena-focused bent to it. this build can also double as a good pve build as well due to the focus in higher damage talents (vs survivability):
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jZMGxzbMZfMGI0bbgcqMcout:rbL0mV
much more damage from that build than mine, but youre much more reliant on your support to succeed. your scourge strikes *will* hit like trucks however. large, fast-moving trucks that feel like theyre carrying heavy metals. your death coils will hit pretty damn hard too for that matter.
as for my build, this is what im using:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jbIMacZZfMMIzbdLIqRssuz:rbhcmV
like i said about, its more of a bg build. of the talents in it, corpse explosion is probably the most useless, but i will say theres a certain kind of fun to blowing up bodies in a tightly packed melee in AV or AB. the combination of AMZ, better AMS and rune tap gives me a lot of survivability, which is important in bg pvp even if you run with friends, because you never know when you might get separated or run into a rogue who decides hes gonna blow alllll his CD's on lucky little you. i use this as my pve dps build too, and manage to make about 2800ish single target dps in 25-mans. obviously i could do better with a better build, but my off-spec is frost pvp, which is another way of saying im not too worried about pve.
ive seen another unholy build used by a few dks with a more arena-focused bent to it. this build can also double as a good pve build as well due to the focus in higher damage talents (vs survivability):
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jZMGxzbMZfMGI0bbgcqMcout:rbL0mV
much more damage from that build than mine, but youre much more reliant on your support to succeed. your scourge strikes *will* hit like trucks however. large, fast-moving trucks that feel like theyre carrying heavy metals. your death coils will hit pretty damn hard too for that matter.
I'm all about Battlegrounds, so this is perfect. Thanks.
Is the CE glyph worth it? The thought of actually killing someone with CE makes me giggle a little. Maybe I just need more attack power, because mine only hits for 300 or 500 or so.
::EDIT::
I'd like to know your reasoning for picking the following talents:
Impurity
Ghoul Frenzy
Gargoyle
Unholy Blight (spent to unlock tier, right?)
And I'd like to know why you didn't go with:
Blood-Caked
Reaping
Dirge
I know you can't get all of the above three talents without losing Imp. Rune Tap, which I agree is far more useful. Also, have you considered Morbidity? Death Coil can be quite nasty in my experience. Was doing a Warsong Gulch where an Unholy DK kept critting me for 6,000 with Death Coil (600 resilience, by the way). That's more than my Frost Strikes.
Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 11:56pm by Mazra
Is the CE glyph worth it? The thought of actually killing someone with CE makes me giggle a little. Maybe I just need more attack power, because mine only hits for 300 or 500 or so.
::EDIT::
I'd like to know your reasoning for picking the following talents:
Impurity
Ghoul Frenzy
Gargoyle
Unholy Blight (spent to unlock tier, right?)
And I'd like to know why you didn't go with:
Blood-Caked
Reaping
Dirge
I know you can't get all of the above three talents without losing Imp. Rune Tap, which I agree is far more useful. Also, have you considered Morbidity? Death Coil can be quite nasty in my experience. Was doing a Warsong Gulch where an Unholy DK kept critting me for 6,000 with Death Coil (600 resilience, by the way). That's more than my Frost Strikes.
Edited, Jun 23rd 2009 11:56pm by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
i have reaping in both of the builds. death runes are too valuable to not get each trees corresponding death rune talent as far as im concerned.
impurity is pretty easy; theres not much better to put points into to advance the talent tree progression, BCB and necrosis arent really worth it in pvp imo, and the extra AP with that and bladed armor do make a difference. not a crazy huge one, but its a difference nonetheless.
ghoul frenzy i could probably take or leave, but sometimes people will wise up and try to take out the ghoul, and it takes anyone but a paladin several seconds to down him. so hitting ghoul frenzy + huddle means theyll be wasting a big hunk of energy trying to kill something that is taking a long time to die. add in a renew or a shield from a priest or a HoT or two from a druid and your ghoul can soak a large amount of damage while huddle is running.
gargoyle hits quite hard. use it when an AP proc or trinket is activated and it provides an enormous amount of pressure on targets.
unholy blight is more for aoe pressure. a smart priest more or less makes it useless via prom, but in a place like your average AV fustercluck, a combination of pestilence-spread diseases with unholy blight makes for a LOT of aoe damage pressure, especially with wandering plague ticking off on everyone.
from a fun perspective yes. in terms of practical use from a min/max perspective, youre probably better off maxing impurity over getting CE. but its just so damn fun to blow someone up and then watch someone else blow up. it can be kinda disheartening, like when you hit someone in super smash bros with ganondorfs super punch. it rattles them a bit.
as for morbidity, i have tried it, and it + the glyph of dark death does make death coil hit very hard. i just prefer the build i have over getting more death coil power (again, a personal choice, and not one a min/maxer would make). thats why i linked the second build; youll get much bigger scourge strike and death coil hits with the unholy/frost build than compared to the unholy/blood.
Quote:
Impurity
Ghoul Frenzy
Gargoyle
Unholy Blight (spent to unlock tier, right?)
Ghoul Frenzy
Gargoyle
Unholy Blight (spent to unlock tier, right?)
impurity is pretty easy; theres not much better to put points into to advance the talent tree progression, BCB and necrosis arent really worth it in pvp imo, and the extra AP with that and bladed armor do make a difference. not a crazy huge one, but its a difference nonetheless.
ghoul frenzy i could probably take or leave, but sometimes people will wise up and try to take out the ghoul, and it takes anyone but a paladin several seconds to down him. so hitting ghoul frenzy + huddle means theyll be wasting a big hunk of energy trying to kill something that is taking a long time to die. add in a renew or a shield from a priest or a HoT or two from a druid and your ghoul can soak a large amount of damage while huddle is running.
gargoyle hits quite hard. use it when an AP proc or trinket is activated and it provides an enormous amount of pressure on targets.
unholy blight is more for aoe pressure. a smart priest more or less makes it useless via prom, but in a place like your average AV fustercluck, a combination of pestilence-spread diseases with unholy blight makes for a LOT of aoe damage pressure, especially with wandering plague ticking off on everyone.
Quote:
Is the CE glyph worth it? The thought of actually killing someone with CE makes me giggle a little. Maybe I just need more attack power, because mine only hits for 300 or 500 or so.
from a fun perspective yes. in terms of practical use from a min/max perspective, youre probably better off maxing impurity over getting CE. but its just so damn fun to blow someone up and then watch someone else blow up. it can be kinda disheartening, like when you hit someone in super smash bros with ganondorfs super punch. it rattles them a bit.
as for morbidity, i have tried it, and it + the glyph of dark death does make death coil hit very hard. i just prefer the build i have over getting more death coil power (again, a personal choice, and not one a min/maxer would make). thats why i linked the second build; youll get much bigger scourge strike and death coil hits with the unholy/frost build than compared to the unholy/blood.
Alright, even though Quor's first post answered a lot of my questions it still seems a bit vague to me. The point is, I guess, that if you go Blood in PvP there aren't a lot of must-have talents you need to pick up. I could in fact make a build like this and even pick up DRW and Blood Gorged to deal with the ArPen and burst problems, without losing any talents that were in the original Blood/Frost PvP build anyway. Either Blood/Frost/Unholy or Blood/Frost+Virulence&DRW seem to me to be brilliant PvP builds - it's just that nobody uses them and I guess that therefore I have to be missing something.
Quor wrote:
i have reaping in both of the builds. death runes are too valuable to not get each trees corresponding death rune talent as far as im concerned.
Oh yeah, my mistake. I started editing the build before replying to your post.
My main concern with Unholy is the ghoul. He's a rather large part of your survivability and damage, but he could easily be put out of the game. Especially facing Paladins. While leveling I went with a build much like the second one you posted. Icy Touch, Plague Strike and one Scourge Strike was usually enough to take out most mobs. However, I found myself in the same situation as I do with Frost now. If that massive Scourge Strike doesn't crit, or if your opponent has more resistance than you have spell penetration, you'll basically end up dead really fast. So I tried implementing Rune Tap by going Blood as well, but I have a hard time getting the most out of it. Don't get me wrong, I use Rune Tap a lot, but at 22k health, it gives me 4400 health or so. Not exactly a lot when your opponents crit for more than that.
Maybe I'm just unlucky, but most of my opponents seem to be Hunters, Death Knights or Paladins, decked in mostly Furious gear. Meaning my crits do little damage and theirs crit like I was butt naked and with the Berserking buff on. It's crazy how broken resilience is, really. I've tried popping Icebound Fortitude with Unbreakable Armor in Frost Presence and some of those guys still take me out in a couple of hits. I've actually been stunlocked in Frost Presence with Unbreakable Armor up. 20k armor, 22k health and 600 resilience and it was all for naught.
I'll give your build a try. I might tweak some things (not getting Gargoyle, for instance, I find it too hard to keep up to be worth it), but I'll definitely focus more on survivability than I have so far.
Thanks for the input.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
no prob maz, hope things work out for you. ive found attaching a priest to my hip helps immensely; dk's hit like puppies when their diseases are cleansed, and even geared ones have trouble killing a disc priest (especially one with nearly 1k resilience).
my understanding is that blood suffers from being almost entirely physical damage reliant and it loses the overall control you get via snaring with desecration or chilblains+pestilence. plus you have to sacrifice a major glyph slot to get your reliable snare effect (glyph of heart strike) and the gearing requirements to make blood worthwhile are much higher than unholy or frost and generally at odds with pvp gearing (blood needs a good hunk of ArP, something that isnt found on pvp gear, and while blood-gorged helps its not enough to tip the scales without significant gear support).
thats how i see it anyhow.
Quote:
Either Blood/Frost/Unholy or Blood/Frost+Virulence&DRW seem to me to be brilliant PvP builds - it's just that nobody uses them and I guess that therefore I have to be missing something.
my understanding is that blood suffers from being almost entirely physical damage reliant and it loses the overall control you get via snaring with desecration or chilblains+pestilence. plus you have to sacrifice a major glyph slot to get your reliable snare effect (glyph of heart strike) and the gearing requirements to make blood worthwhile are much higher than unholy or frost and generally at odds with pvp gearing (blood needs a good hunk of ArP, something that isnt found on pvp gear, and while blood-gorged helps its not enough to tip the scales without significant gear support).
thats how i see it anyhow.
After a night of WSG (which I admit, isn't much to go on) my experiences with Blood/frost+unholy are actually pretty positive. Even though I was in greenies and blues I was quite the survivor when it came to it. The sheer amount of survivability techniques the spec has is just insane. I can use Mark of Blood on a pet for a free HOT. I can turn myself Undead and do some minor Death Coil healing. I can Death Pact my Ghoul. Then I can Rune Tap and I haven't even mentioned Death Strike here. Or Vampiric Blood which while makes me unkillable for half a minute if popped at the right moment. I feel somewhat like I'm playing my rogue except that all my cooldowns (Vanish, sprint, evasion, CloS) are turned into heals rather than giving me mobility or something alike. I did somewhat notice the "doesn't pack a punch" effect; I was critting HS and DS on 3K on the average target. Of course I am in greenies, but I'm guessing that won't rise above 5K against resilience-clad targets.
I'm not sure whether I'm going to try frost, it just doesn't seem my thing, but I'll give this Unholy build a go soon and see what happens.
I'm not sure whether I'm going to try frost, it just doesn't seem my thing, but I'll give this Unholy build a go soon and see what happens.
Mozared wrote:
After a night of WSG (which I admit, isn't much to go on) my experiences with Blood/frost+unholy are actually pretty positive. Even though I was in greenies and blues I was quite the survivor when it came to it. The sheer amount of survivability techniques the spec has is just insane. I can use Mark of Blood on a pet for a free HOT. I can turn myself Undead and do some minor Death Coil healing. I can Death Pact my Ghoul. Then I can Rune Tap and I haven't even mentioned Death Strike here. Or Vampiric Blood which while makes me unkillable for half a minute if popped at the right moment. I feel somewhat like I'm playing my rogue except that all my cooldowns (Vanish, sprint, evasion, CloS) are turned into heals rather than giving me mobility or something alike. I did somewhat notice the "doesn't pack a punch" effect; I was critting HS and DS on 3K on the average target. Of course I am in greenies, but I'm guessing that won't rise above 5K against resilience-clad targets.
I'm not sure whether I'm going to try frost, it just doesn't seem my thing, but I'll give this Unholy build a go soon and see what happens.
I'm not sure whether I'm going to try frost, it just doesn't seem my thing, but I'll give this Unholy build a go soon and see what happens.
I'm in blue PvP gear (with a couple of epics) and I'm doing around 5k Frost Strike crits on PvE targets and 3k-ish on PvP targets. How the hell do you crit for 3k with HS/DS in greens? Seriously, did I mess up my talent build completely or did I miss some spells somewhere?
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Beats me. I guess I might've just been hitting PvE-geared targets the entire night, but I am a 100% sure that my crits were around 3100 on DS and HS. I've had some ~3000 crits and some 3200 ones. Death Coil on the other hand is critting for 1K. Here's my armory if you want to compare gear or the likes. Just add a Blessing of Kings to it, I played with a Paladin the entire evening. I guess Might of Mograine helps, but then again I'm guessing you picked up Guile of Gorefiend.
Edited, Jun 26th 2009 6:57pm by Mozared
Edited, Jun 26th 2009 6:57pm by Mozared
he may have been running with the death strike glyph; that helps a lot.
also, he might have been attacking clothies; HS/DS is going to do a lot more to cloth than frost strike will, relatively speaking. frost strike is going to do a lot more to mail+shield and plate however.
well, that is until it gets nerfed to all ****.
also, he might have been attacking clothies; HS/DS is going to do a lot more to cloth than frost strike will, relatively speaking. frost strike is going to do a lot more to mail+shield and plate however.
well, that is until it gets nerfed to all ****.
I wasn't using the DS glyph, no. I use the glyphs of HS, Vamp Blood and Disease, though I'm not entirely sure of the last ones' worth yet. I distinctly recall a 3200 crit being on a mage, but I'm positive some of those crits were on other DK's and retardins as well. My highest crit currently is a 4K HS on an instance mob. That is with my gear upgraded from last time though; I'm now on about 800 Strength unbuffed (which makes ~950 with Horn of Winter) and on 2300ish AP.
Speaking of which, what are your visions about DK PvP specs after the nerf? I'm guessing a spec like Blood might become a little more interesting with the damage nerf to Unholy and the resilience change (which might make survivability more wanted).
Quote:
well, that is until it gets nerfed to all sh*t.
Speaking of which, what are your visions about DK PvP specs after the nerf? I'm guessing a spec like Blood might become a little more interesting with the damage nerf to Unholy and the resilience change (which might make survivability more wanted).
personally, ill probably keep my current unholy build about the same (assuming they actually make SS hit harder then 2x BS that is). as for my frost pvp build, i might swap that to blood, just to see what its like. as it looks now, frost is going to be pretty gutted, and i think the best (and maybe only) way to recover from such a gutting would be to go dual wield with the threat of thassarian talent. the reasoning for that being its slightly less likely that two attacks (mh+oh) will be parried/dodged/blocked than will one (with a 2h).
Take the link to my death knight and I pvp blood.
I've been getting 5-6k death strikes on clothies with full rp. I've been getting up to about 4k death strikes on plate classes as well.
I really feel blood is gonna become the new pvp spec. Even in my terrible gear I've been surviving a lot more than I should be.
I've been getting 5-6k death strikes on clothies with full rp. I've been getting up to about 4k death strikes on plate classes as well.
I really feel blood is gonna become the new pvp spec. Even in my terrible gear I've been surviving a lot more than I should be.
=O
Hope! =P
Interesting specs. First one seems more of a tanking spec and the second looks like blood/permaghoul, amirite? I assume the first one's pretty much unkillable, but how does the second one play? Like blood without CoI but with some more damage?
Hope! =P
Interesting specs. First one seems more of a tanking spec and the second looks like blood/permaghoul, amirite? I assume the first one's pretty much unkillable, but how does the second one play? Like blood without CoI but with some more damage?
I switched my specs around to try out Blood and Frost PvP. Oddly enough, I found my survivability to drop after going Blood. I don't know if I ran into an unlucky focus fire moment, but it seemed like I dropped way faster than when I played Unholy. Maybe it's the lack of Bone Shield and permaghoul. Having your pet nearby for an instant sac makes a world of a difference, or so I've found out.
Frost is, well, what it's always been. Very effective CC with chillblains and Hungering Cold. You lack the "POW!" of Scourge Strike, but having a runic power dump that does 90% Scourge Strike damage isn't bad either. And with a lucky proc chain, you can probably beat Unholy in burst damage. Not to mention Unbreakable Armor, which is pretty much a Bone Shield without charges, but with a shorter duration. Pop Icebound and Unbreakable along with Anti-Magic Shell and I'm taking 25% damage from pretty much anything. Rogues and Feral Druids just go *pling pling pling* when they hit me with their white damage.
Before dumping Unholy, I went from Unholy/Frost to Unholy/Blood, getting Rune Tap over Lichborne and Black Ice. Not really sure if the trade was worth it. It meant I could get damage increasing stuff like Bladed Armor, 2H Specialization and +crit from Dark Conviction, which I guess amounted to the 10% I lost from Black Ice, so the trade off was Lichborne for Rune Tap. Since I didn't run with Morbidity, I figured Rune Tap would scale better.
The loss of another Fear dispel was hard, though. I learned how Fear-chain really sucks. Being Feared to death should be impossible since you have a chance to break Fear after taking a certain amount of damage, yet, I was Feared by a Warlock and it didn't break at any point during the 21k damage I took.
Anyway, I'm not sure if I'd go back to Unholy/Blood. Rune Tap, while nice, only prolonged my life by about two seconds. 1v1 it isn't really needed and 1vMore, I'm dead anyway.
Blood was a big disappointment. I had Death Strikes of 5k on clothies as well, with Heart Strike hitting for about the same. But since I have no armor penetration, Warriors, Paladins and other Death Knights just laughed at me all the way to the graveyard. Having your 5k Heart/Death Strike turn into a 2k strike is pretty sucky. Especially when you don't have the survivability to make up for it (Mark of Blood can be dispelled, Vampiric Blood only works if you're actually getting healed, Blood Worms only seem to proc at 10% health or less). And watching your "nuke" get hit in the face by armor rating is pretty hard when you just left a build behind where your nuke bypassed armor 100% and did upwards of 6k on low resilience and 5k on high resilience.
So now I'm going to keep one build Frost/Blood (the one I'm using now) and then go either Unholy/Blood or Unholy/Frost. Most likely the former due to Bladed Armor and Subversion, so my Unholy build can work as my DPS build as well.
Edited, Jul 4th 2009 12:22pm by Mazra
Frost is, well, what it's always been. Very effective CC with chillblains and Hungering Cold. You lack the "POW!" of Scourge Strike, but having a runic power dump that does 90% Scourge Strike damage isn't bad either. And with a lucky proc chain, you can probably beat Unholy in burst damage. Not to mention Unbreakable Armor, which is pretty much a Bone Shield without charges, but with a shorter duration. Pop Icebound and Unbreakable along with Anti-Magic Shell and I'm taking 25% damage from pretty much anything. Rogues and Feral Druids just go *pling pling pling* when they hit me with their white damage.
Before dumping Unholy, I went from Unholy/Frost to Unholy/Blood, getting Rune Tap over Lichborne and Black Ice. Not really sure if the trade was worth it. It meant I could get damage increasing stuff like Bladed Armor, 2H Specialization and +crit from Dark Conviction, which I guess amounted to the 10% I lost from Black Ice, so the trade off was Lichborne for Rune Tap. Since I didn't run with Morbidity, I figured Rune Tap would scale better.
The loss of another Fear dispel was hard, though. I learned how Fear-chain really sucks. Being Feared to death should be impossible since you have a chance to break Fear after taking a certain amount of damage, yet, I was Feared by a Warlock and it didn't break at any point during the 21k damage I took.
Anyway, I'm not sure if I'd go back to Unholy/Blood. Rune Tap, while nice, only prolonged my life by about two seconds. 1v1 it isn't really needed and 1vMore, I'm dead anyway.
Blood was a big disappointment. I had Death Strikes of 5k on clothies as well, with Heart Strike hitting for about the same. But since I have no armor penetration, Warriors, Paladins and other Death Knights just laughed at me all the way to the graveyard. Having your 5k Heart/Death Strike turn into a 2k strike is pretty sucky. Especially when you don't have the survivability to make up for it (Mark of Blood can be dispelled, Vampiric Blood only works if you're actually getting healed, Blood Worms only seem to proc at 10% health or less). And watching your "nuke" get hit in the face by armor rating is pretty hard when you just left a build behind where your nuke bypassed armor 100% and did upwards of 6k on low resilience and 5k on high resilience.
So now I'm going to keep one build Frost/Blood (the one I'm using now) and then go either Unholy/Blood or Unholy/Frost. Most likely the former due to Bladed Armor and Subversion, so my Unholy build can work as my DPS build as well.
Edited, Jul 4th 2009 12:22pm by Mazra
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
if it helps maz, i use the rune tap glyph, plus i generally almost always pvp with friends. being able to heal them for 10% of their life (and 22% of my own) every 30s for the cost of a single blood rune is pretty damn sweet. part of my relative success is that i tend to pvp with a destro lock, and people know that if they see a lock casting immolate they cant leave him alone or he'll start tearing holes in the earth and crap, so i become something of a lower priority target.
other tips for the unholy/blood build....um, it helps if you develop a sense of how the flow of battle works, especially in regards to fear. you can use AMS as a "fear soak" which, when coupled with your mind freeze and ghoul stun, should give you quite a bit of time to wear the warlock down (4s with first mind freeze, 5s with AMS, 4s with another mind freeze, 3s with ghoul stun, 4s with another mind freeze that will cut it close but work more often than not in my experience).
generally, if theyre destro, this will have them on the ropes, if not nearly dead. affliction is harder; those are the tough ones to kill. demo is a wash; if meta isnt up theyre fairly easy and a combo of death striking and rune tap is usually enough to outlast them. if theyve got meta, youre generally better off CoI kiting out of range till it wears off, or attaching a healer to your hip.
make sure you get wandering plague so you get that extra chance for double damage with dark conviction.
believe it or not, ive found blade barrier much more useful (3/5 points, rest in 2/2 butchery) than subversion. in pvp, without rage of rivendare (and even with it most of the time) i wont be taking threat from good tanks. mediocre tanks or bosses with aggro drops i need to give some time, but otherwise my damage, while good, isnt crazy awesome good. the 3% less damage from blade barrier in pvp, coupled with bone shield and frost presence, helps a lot more than you think. its always up too, with the rare exception of saving a blood rune for a strangulte (generally ill blood tap for the death rune then strang).
remember your ghoul is immune to fear, so you can manually use him as an interrupt via ghoul stun while youre feared. turn claw off tho, otherwise your ghoul wont have any energy when you need it most. also dont auto-cast your ghoul stun, use it manually on those clutch moments.
dont forget unholy blight; its good pressure damage, and even snags the occasional slow rogue or druid out of stealth.
overall tho, my best advice is to try and develop a sense for how a fight will progress. generally if i get on a priest the first thing theyll do is fear, so i get the 20 RP i need for AMS asap and i pop it. literally 9 times out of 10 ill see a big fat "immune" pop up, giving me 30s of uninterrupted priest munching. if the fear does end up going off, i can still trinket if needed, or use my ghoul stun to interrupt the priest (dont do it right away, do it about 3s into the fear unless youre interrupting a vital spell). after you come out of fear and the priest is unstunned, you DG him over as another ghetto interrupt and then proceed with the killingness.
same idea applies to frost mages and destro locks; pre-empt the nova with an AMS and you can often force a blink, which leads into a DG, which leads into a ghoul stun, which usually leads into a nearly dead mage who ice blocks. meanwhile your runes are freshing, so you just back off and get ready to chains/IT the ******* as soon as the block drops. launch off a death coil or two and even if you get polyed chances are your ghoul and your frost fever will finish him off before he can do anything. or at the very least youll force an evocate and since you dodged the first nova youll hopefully have your trinket still.
again, same applies to destro locks, only try to use IBF early to soak the shadowfury and be ready to interrupt the howl of terror.
hmm, i guess i can sum this all up with "play aggressively". ive found that using DK cooldowns in a defensive capacity has less of an effect than using them offensively to nullify other class defenses. if that makes sense (its 4:45am here).
other tips for the unholy/blood build....um, it helps if you develop a sense of how the flow of battle works, especially in regards to fear. you can use AMS as a "fear soak" which, when coupled with your mind freeze and ghoul stun, should give you quite a bit of time to wear the warlock down (4s with first mind freeze, 5s with AMS, 4s with another mind freeze, 3s with ghoul stun, 4s with another mind freeze that will cut it close but work more often than not in my experience).
generally, if theyre destro, this will have them on the ropes, if not nearly dead. affliction is harder; those are the tough ones to kill. demo is a wash; if meta isnt up theyre fairly easy and a combo of death striking and rune tap is usually enough to outlast them. if theyve got meta, youre generally better off CoI kiting out of range till it wears off, or attaching a healer to your hip.
make sure you get wandering plague so you get that extra chance for double damage with dark conviction.
believe it or not, ive found blade barrier much more useful (3/5 points, rest in 2/2 butchery) than subversion. in pvp, without rage of rivendare (and even with it most of the time) i wont be taking threat from good tanks. mediocre tanks or bosses with aggro drops i need to give some time, but otherwise my damage, while good, isnt crazy awesome good. the 3% less damage from blade barrier in pvp, coupled with bone shield and frost presence, helps a lot more than you think. its always up too, with the rare exception of saving a blood rune for a strangulte (generally ill blood tap for the death rune then strang).
remember your ghoul is immune to fear, so you can manually use him as an interrupt via ghoul stun while youre feared. turn claw off tho, otherwise your ghoul wont have any energy when you need it most. also dont auto-cast your ghoul stun, use it manually on those clutch moments.
dont forget unholy blight; its good pressure damage, and even snags the occasional slow rogue or druid out of stealth.
overall tho, my best advice is to try and develop a sense for how a fight will progress. generally if i get on a priest the first thing theyll do is fear, so i get the 20 RP i need for AMS asap and i pop it. literally 9 times out of 10 ill see a big fat "immune" pop up, giving me 30s of uninterrupted priest munching. if the fear does end up going off, i can still trinket if needed, or use my ghoul stun to interrupt the priest (dont do it right away, do it about 3s into the fear unless youre interrupting a vital spell). after you come out of fear and the priest is unstunned, you DG him over as another ghetto interrupt and then proceed with the killingness.
same idea applies to frost mages and destro locks; pre-empt the nova with an AMS and you can often force a blink, which leads into a DG, which leads into a ghoul stun, which usually leads into a nearly dead mage who ice blocks. meanwhile your runes are freshing, so you just back off and get ready to chains/IT the ******* as soon as the block drops. launch off a death coil or two and even if you get polyed chances are your ghoul and your frost fever will finish him off before he can do anything. or at the very least youll force an evocate and since you dodged the first nova youll hopefully have your trinket still.
again, same applies to destro locks, only try to use IBF early to soak the shadowfury and be ready to interrupt the howl of terror.
hmm, i guess i can sum this all up with "play aggressively". ive found that using DK cooldowns in a defensive capacity has less of an effect than using them offensively to nullify other class defenses. if that makes sense (its 4:45am here).
Thanks for all the tips, Quor!
I have a very aggressive playstyle already. I'm usually top damage done, top honorable kills (only passed by healers sometimes) and more often than not, top deaths as well.
I just love running into battle with my mace swinging and my ghoul leaping.
Just did some Battlegrounds with my Frost spec and I'm inclined to switch back to Unholy. I ran with your build for a while, but switched to another build that excluded Wandering Plague, Unholy Blight and Ghoul Frenzy (and Gargoyle, but I don't remember if your build has it). Somehow I didn't feel as powerful as I did with your build. I guess Unholy Blight and Wandering Plague really makes a difference.
I've dumped Ghoul Frenzy, though, because I usually sac the ghoul a lot for the health. Keeping him alive just isn't worth the rune. I'd rather sac him and summon a new. I'm going to miss my massive damage done, though.
Did a Warsong Gulch where was I was 150,000 damge higher than the next on the list. Nothing like catching the entire enemy group in close quarters and getting a Killing Machine proc.
I'll go back to your build and give it a spin. I'll get Unholy Blight and Wandering Plague. Just have to see what I'll sack in return.
I have a very aggressive playstyle already. I'm usually top damage done, top honorable kills (only passed by healers sometimes) and more often than not, top deaths as well.
I just love running into battle with my mace swinging and my ghoul leaping. Just did some Battlegrounds with my Frost spec and I'm inclined to switch back to Unholy. I ran with your build for a while, but switched to another build that excluded Wandering Plague, Unholy Blight and Ghoul Frenzy (and Gargoyle, but I don't remember if your build has it). Somehow I didn't feel as powerful as I did with your build. I guess Unholy Blight and Wandering Plague really makes a difference.
I've dumped Ghoul Frenzy, though, because I usually sac the ghoul a lot for the health. Keeping him alive just isn't worth the rune. I'd rather sac him and summon a new. I'm going to miss my massive damage done, though.
Did a Warsong Gulch where was I was 150,000 damge higher than the next on the list. Nothing like catching the entire enemy group in close quarters and getting a Killing Machine proc.
I'll go back to your build and give it a spin. I'll get Unholy Blight and Wandering Plague. Just have to see what I'll sack in return.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
i leave out rage of rivendare, take 4/5 impurity and ignore morbidity.
i also grab corpse explosion, for the psychological fun factor, but thats purely an aesthetic choice; from a min/max perspective youre better off getting damn near anything else.
heres the unholy/blood build i run with most of the time again:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jbIMacZZfMrI0bdLIqRcsuz
thats identical to what i have save for the lack of corpse explosion and ghoul frenzy (which meant 2 points into morbidity instead).
if youre not a fan of the rune tap glyph, then id suggest getting dark death instead, for meatier death coils. but youll find the synergy of unholy blight, pestilence and wandering plague is pretty taxing on healers. my guild refers to it as the "chainsaw" effect, which is to say you become a chainsaw that just slowly but steadily tears thru people. the only thing that can really counter it is excessive use of prayer of mending by 2-3 priests.
i also grab corpse explosion, for the psychological fun factor, but thats purely an aesthetic choice; from a min/max perspective youre better off getting damn near anything else.
heres the unholy/blood build i run with most of the time again:
http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jbIMacZZfMrI0bdLIqRcsuz
thats identical to what i have save for the lack of corpse explosion and ghoul frenzy (which meant 2 points into morbidity instead).
if youre not a fan of the rune tap glyph, then id suggest getting dark death instead, for meatier death coils. but youll find the synergy of unholy blight, pestilence and wandering plague is pretty taxing on healers. my guild refers to it as the "chainsaw" effect, which is to say you become a chainsaw that just slowly but steadily tears thru people. the only thing that can really counter it is excessive use of prayer of mending by 2-3 priests.
How do you justify the lack of Rage of Rivendare, though?
10% damage and some expertise just doesn't seem like something you'd not get. Especially since you use Plague Strike, like, all the time, not to mention the Scourge Strike glyph which keeps Blood Plague on the target most of the time.
Without Rage of Rivendare (and Black Ice), I dare say my Scourge Strikes would do less damage than my Frost Strikes. I just can't imagine blowing two runes on something that does less damage than something I can cast for 32 runic power.
10% damage and some expertise just doesn't seem like something you'd not get. Especially since you use Plague Strike, like, all the time, not to mention the Scourge Strike glyph which keeps Blood Plague on the target most of the time.
Without Rage of Rivendare (and Black Ice), I dare say my Scourge Strikes would do less damage than my Frost Strikes. I just can't imagine blowing two runes on something that does less damage than something I can cast for 32 runic power.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Quote:
How do you justify the lack of Rage of Rivendare, though?
Maybe he plays in blood presence? Seeing as UH presence becomes a bit redundant if you pick up the talent.
its a mix of frost and blood. ill generally start in frost and if im not taken much damage ill swap to blood. imp UP just means im moving 15% faster at all times regardless of presence. i really feel the lack of unholy presence whenever im using my frost build, but i cant stand not being in blood for damage, which sometimes leaves me falling a bit behind in some cases. it doesnt seem like it, but 15% makes a huge damn difference.
anyway, in blood presence with cinderglacier up i get crits with SS for about 5k on targets with 800-900 resilience. on low resil targets ive seen it crit for upwards of 7500.
conversely, with just about every +dmg talent i can finagle, my frost strikes in identical gear will crit for about 5kish on low resil targets (in both cases low resil could mean anywhere from 0-400 or so). this is using the jawbone btw. cinderglacier procs can force this above 6k, but typically i find that my glyphed obliterate hits and crits harder than my frost strikes do on every non-plate target out there (howling blast usually replaces oblit when im up against plate).
my armory is alexandrax @ US anetheron if youre interested in looking at my gear maz.
for comparison, a friend of mine with a more 2's-centric build that incorporates rage of rivendare with fallen crusader runeforge gets scourge strikes that crit for about 3-4% less then mine using a deaths bite. now, DB has a lower top end, so that accounts for some of the difference, but its largely made up for with the 4/5 RoR he has in his build. were he to use cinderglacier im sure he could push his damage about 10-15% higher than mine on the top end.
ive seen black ice/RoR builds get SS crits of around 9k on low resil targets in a mix of pvp and pve gear (500ish resil total). but youre quite reliant on your healer then, plus you need blood presence for that kind of damage. typically with my unholy build in frost presence on a priest (i say priest because they tend to have the most resil of any target i face) in arena ill get SS crits of about 3.5-4k or so. that might not seem like a lot, but with ERW up and gargoyle going comboed with ghoul stun and strangulate/mind freeze i can put quite the hurting down in a rather short period of time.
anyway, in blood presence with cinderglacier up i get crits with SS for about 5k on targets with 800-900 resilience. on low resil targets ive seen it crit for upwards of 7500.
conversely, with just about every +dmg talent i can finagle, my frost strikes in identical gear will crit for about 5kish on low resil targets (in both cases low resil could mean anywhere from 0-400 or so). this is using the jawbone btw. cinderglacier procs can force this above 6k, but typically i find that my glyphed obliterate hits and crits harder than my frost strikes do on every non-plate target out there (howling blast usually replaces oblit when im up against plate).
my armory is alexandrax @ US anetheron if youre interested in looking at my gear maz.
for comparison, a friend of mine with a more 2's-centric build that incorporates rage of rivendare with fallen crusader runeforge gets scourge strikes that crit for about 3-4% less then mine using a deaths bite. now, DB has a lower top end, so that accounts for some of the difference, but its largely made up for with the 4/5 RoR he has in his build. were he to use cinderglacier im sure he could push his damage about 10-15% higher than mine on the top end.
ive seen black ice/RoR builds get SS crits of around 9k on low resil targets in a mix of pvp and pve gear (500ish resil total). but youre quite reliant on your healer then, plus you need blood presence for that kind of damage. typically with my unholy build in frost presence on a priest (i say priest because they tend to have the most resil of any target i face) in arena ill get SS crits of about 3.5-4k or so. that might not seem like a lot, but with ERW up and gargoyle going comboed with ghoul stun and strangulate/mind freeze i can put quite the hurting down in a rather short period of time.
Mozared wrote:
Maybe he plays in blood presence? Seeing as UH presence becomes a bit redundant if you pick up the talent.
Color me clueless, but what does Unholy Presence have to do with Rage of Rivendare?
I'm not so happy about using Cinderglacier, Quor. Yeah, you get some pretty amazing crits when it procs. Emphasis on 'when'. I've gone entire fights where Cinderglacier didn't proc until the final blow, or didn't proc until after I had spent Scourge Strike. The healing from Fallen Crusader and the almost constant strength bonus increases my damage more than the Cinderglacier proc.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
Quote:
Color me clueless, but what does Unholy Presence have to do with Rage of Rivendare?
Quor picked up improved unholy aura in his build which makes sure you get the 15% movement speed bonus regardless of the aura you're in. Seeing as 1 sec faster on the runes isn't as brilliant that talent basically means you can play in frost or blood presence over unholy without losing any good bonusses.
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