So going off the Blood Vs. Frost thread from a few days ago, I gave Frost tanking a shot. While I may not have given it a fair shot, I gave it a shot.
After a few runs as frost, I ran into a H Occ group. Myself(Frost), lock x 3, Druid healer. It went bad, really bad. I had agro on the group for maybe 3 seconds each pull, then the locks decided to see how fast they could pull and burn the mob I WASN'T on. They did this about every pull even after I said to hold up on the AEs. Of coarse the healer saying he could heal it and not to worry about agro didn't help. While AE agro seemed to be a little better then Blood, the rune usage/rotation was foreign since I DPS as Blood and became a problem once or twice.
Today I decide to go back to Blood, the last run I tanked was H VH. Myself(Blood), War(Fury), DK(Unholy), Shaman(Elemental) and a Shaman healer. The war pulled agro a few times but I noticed he was rarely on the same mob I opened on. The DK was pulling agro on a mob about every pull but he was dropping DnD about 2 seconds after I was on almost every pull and refreshing it every time the CD came up. (Now when the @#%^ did DnD become a DPS ability) Also, the elemental Shaman would pull agro here and there, more then the War but nowhere near as much as the DK.
I've tried a few different opening rotations as Blood. DnD, IT, PS, BB, Tab. Or DnD, BB, DS, Tab. Or IT, DnD, PS, Pest, dump, DS, Tab. Along with a few other combinations with no noticeable difference to speak of.
Not sure if I am doing something wrong or what, I don't think it's my gear or spec but let me know if it is. Zantrose
I haven't really been able to watch Omen because every fight seems to be a mad dash to get agro back. I did get a chance to glance at it for a few seconds when I was in H VH though and I was sitting consistently around 4800 and I believe that was after DnD had worn off.
Single target agro is easy, I can do it with my eyes closed without DnD or Runestrike. Multi target agro has just been a major issue.
Any advice would be appreciated at this point. I'm just going to start having a little talk with the healers after the first idiot DPS pulls agro from now on.
Edit: Armory isn't showing my stats in Frost presence. Should be 27K armor and HP.
Also, are their any addons that show threat % or the current target of all the mobs in combat? Basically I want to know when a mob I'm not targeting switches it's target or better yet, is about to switch.
Edited, May 25th 2009 2:54am by Raolan
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- Ready to throw in the towel. (agro issues)
Ready to throw in the towel. (agro issues)Follow
What are you doing wrong? Grouping with asshats.
Realistically, every DK spec (and just about every AoE tank, NEEDS time to get aggro on packs. Everyone in your group should have known this. Generally, I tell people to wait 5 seconds and then attack.
In 5 seconds, the HB (should be your opener, if they are close together) CD is almost up, so if they start attacking I'll have another hate spike quickly. And, if I'm lucky, a Rime proc after that. You'll also have had one BB and they'll come in on the second one.
In 5 seconds as Blood, you'll have: 5 seconds of DnD, your two diseases and a Pest. Your group will come in on your BB. The biggest problem with Blood tanking is that it doesn't get any spike aggro. So, as long as your group's average and spike thread stays below their range threshold, you'll be fine.
If your groups weren't stupid, you'd have been fine (I assume your rotations were fine).
And, that DK using DnD as AoE DpS should have been kicked if he was told to stop and didn't. I assume you DID tell him...
Realistically, every DK spec (and just about every AoE tank, NEEDS time to get aggro on packs. Everyone in your group should have known this. Generally, I tell people to wait 5 seconds and then attack.
In 5 seconds, the HB (should be your opener, if they are close together) CD is almost up, so if they start attacking I'll have another hate spike quickly. And, if I'm lucky, a Rime proc after that. You'll also have had one BB and they'll come in on the second one.
In 5 seconds as Blood, you'll have: 5 seconds of DnD, your two diseases and a Pest. Your group will come in on your BB. The biggest problem with Blood tanking is that it doesn't get any spike aggro. So, as long as your group's average and spike thread stays below their range threshold, you'll be fine.
If your groups weren't stupid, you'd have been fine (I assume your rotations were fine).
And, that DK using DnD as AoE DpS should have been kicked if he was told to stop and didn't. I assume you DID tell him...
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
idiggory wrote:
If your groups weren't stupid, you'd have been fine (I assume your rotations were fine).
The first six runes are pretty solid with minor changes as needed. The next set of runes after I tab tend to become a scramble as the mob I tab to tends to no longer be targeting me. In which case I try dropping some spike damage with HS or DS and RS when it's up so I can check the rest of the targets without having to worry about losing that mob again.
Quote:
And, that DK using DnD as AoE DpS should have been kicked if he was told to stop and didn't. I assume you DID tell him...
I whispered him but it's kind of hard to replace someone in the middle of VH.
This isn't the first time I have run into DnD being used as a DPS ability, just the first time I have had to tank against it. I have seen it happen in runs with other people tanking and have even been asked to wait a few seconds before using it so the tank could get agro. My reply was, "why would I use an agro ability to DPS?" to which I was told that it's a great DPS tool for Unholy. According to this prot war, his DK was 25m Uld geared and knew what he was talking about so refused to see the complete and total idiocy of what he was saying.
My main concern is that it's like this on every single run I try to tank. I don't think it's the opening rot since it's pretty standard so I just wanted to make sure it wasn't my spec or gear. I am tempted to run a few non heroics to see if I have the same problem. However I have tanked normal HoL a few times and run into these problems, but those are specifically from AE happy mages.
Think I am just going to make it very clear before the first pull that if they take agro they better be ready to tank it.
As I told the group that I tanked heroic UK with...
"Those who aoe before I have a chance to get sufficient aggro must want to tank, and I will gladly let you. For when you die, it will come back to me."
That's my attitude towards tanking. DPS has two jobs, do damage, and not pull aggro. That's IT. If they can't handle that, then they are just terrible. Yes some tanks generate less threat than others, and to a point the tank should try to generate more threat, but if someone is pulling a mob off you in the first 3 seconds... well I let them tank it. I hold true to this in raids as well, and my guild knows this. If they give me full rune cycle to get aggro, they'll never pull stuff off me no matter how hard they try. If they AoE before that... well let's just say my taunt button will seem to be broken.
"Those who aoe before I have a chance to get sufficient aggro must want to tank, and I will gladly let you. For when you die, it will come back to me."
That's my attitude towards tanking. DPS has two jobs, do damage, and not pull aggro. That's IT. If they can't handle that, then they are just terrible. Yes some tanks generate less threat than others, and to a point the tank should try to generate more threat, but if someone is pulling a mob off you in the first 3 seconds... well I let them tank it. I hold true to this in raids as well, and my guild knows this. If they give me full rune cycle to get aggro, they'll never pull stuff off me no matter how hard they try. If they AoE before that... well let's just say my taunt button will seem to be broken.
Raolan wrote:
lock x 3
It gets really interesting if all three Warlocks are Affliction spec'd.
Tank: 'Okay, I'ma pullin' now!'
Warlocks: 'Okay.'
*Dotdotdotdotdotdotdotdot*
*EPIDEMIC CRIT CHAIN*
*wipewipewipewipewipe*
Been there, tried that.
Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
I was recently in hVH with a tank that I had seen in a PUG Naxx once but don't really know that well. His threat generation was very low even considering differences in our gear. Not sure why, but that was the situation. I pulled the first thing I hit even waiting 3s. Know what I did?
I waited longer. Then I swapped presence. Then I swapped weapons. That just about did it.
This is not a critique of the tank but an example of what I feel is the proper course of action for DPS when they are having threat issues. While there are tanks that are cool with me opening up full-blast right from the start, not all tanks are like that and we DPS need to understand the limitations of threat.
Dear DPS LEARN TO F'ING OMEN.
Other than that, I'm not sure what to tell ya Raolan. While tanking takes practice and experience, from what you're saying here it's just a point of taking charge and telling DPS to chill the hell out.
Good luck.
I waited longer. Then I swapped presence. Then I swapped weapons. That just about did it.
This is not a critique of the tank but an example of what I feel is the proper course of action for DPS when they are having threat issues. While there are tanks that are cool with me opening up full-blast right from the start, not all tanks are like that and we DPS need to understand the limitations of threat.
Dear DPS LEARN TO F'ING OMEN.
Other than that, I'm not sure what to tell ya Raolan. While tanking takes practice and experience, from what you're saying here it's just a point of taking charge and telling DPS to chill the hell out.
Good luck.
Quote:
This isn't the first time I have run into DnD being used as a DPS ability, just the first time I have had to tank against it. I have seen it happen in runs with other people tanking and have even been asked to wait a few seconds before using it so the tank could get agro. My reply was, "why would I use an agro ability to DPS?" to which I was told that it's a great DPS tool for Unholy. According to this prot war, his DK was 25m Uld geared and knew what he was talking about so refused to see the complete and total idiocy of what he was saying.
DnD formula: 62+(AP*.0475) And, adding in Black Ice, Impurity and EP, as well as the glyph, it'll be something like:
[62+(1.2*AP*.0475)*1.12*1.10]*1.2 NOTE: I don't know if BI and EP are additive or multiplicative.
So, assuming your tank has 3K AP and the DpS has 5K AP, both with the above setup, you get:
3K-- 344.5 DpS per mob. Which is 1357.2 TpS (all in FP).
5k-- 596.9 DpS per mob. Which is 1019.5 TpS (all in BP).
Now, when you add in the collective increased damage Unholy gets as a DpS (higher disease damage, higher UB damage, higher WP damage, more frequent WP procs, higher Necrosis and BCB damage, higher BB damage), you can see why it is NOT a good idea to use DnD for DpS unless you and the tank REALLY know each other.
I would NEVER use DnD in a PuG unless the Tank has near the same amount of AP as me (and thus way outgears the instance).
Does DnD put out really nice DpS? Sure. It is about 600 per mob, or 200 DpS per mob per Rune. But, even then, it is NOT worth it unless you have a sizable number of mobs. BB can do over 1K for Unholy in tank gear--much better to use that and your FU ability than DnD to DpS.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
So today I tanked a hVH. First boss was that big floating eye thing and being on the stairs meant having to deal with LOS issues. Well the ret paladin hit it before I did, it ran out of LOS, then the boomkin opened up and instantly pulled aggro. Know what I did? I let the boomkin tank it. Once he died, the boss came back to me, we had no other problems and we killed it with minimal trouble. I gave him my speech of if you open up before I get sufficient aggro, I'll let you tank it... and he started to give me crap about my tps. However, I think he watched his aggro from that point on, because I didn't lose a single mob to pulling aggro the rest of the run... well except for when the final boss teleported me, but I'm thinking that was an aggro wipe. I actually did taunt that one, mainly because it was a boss mechanic, not a dps being stupid.
And, on top of it, the DpS never ease into things--they go full blast ASAP. If the boomkin just threw a moonfire on the target, that wouldn't pull aggro. But when he uses his strongest AoE when you've only had two hits and haven't spread diseases, we have an issue.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Well first off, I find unholy the easiest DK tank to learn tanking with. DnD is just ridiculous for aoe threat generation, and once that and diseases are up mobs arent going anywhere. Combine in some unholy blight and even adds will stick to you faster than they can get to party members.
As for frost, it just takes a little finesse. On trash I tend to use DnD because its still a large threat boost for aoe pulls. Ill go DnD -> Deathchill(if its up) -> HB. Mark your first kill before the fights and that usually helps a LOT with threat control because by the time the first kill is down the side mobs are stuck to you like glue. The only reason i can think of that would cause mobs to go straight for the dps is if the dps are using single target direct damage on a mob you arent focusing on. AoE should never give you a problem. Marking the first kill gives you another advantage that you now have it targetted for taunting if someone does go nuts during your short burnout of runes at the start of an aoe trash pull.
I didn't look at your gear/spec, but just keep in mind that gear will make a large difference.
As for frost, it just takes a little finesse. On trash I tend to use DnD because its still a large threat boost for aoe pulls. Ill go DnD -> Deathchill(if its up) -> HB. Mark your first kill before the fights and that usually helps a LOT with threat control because by the time the first kill is down the side mobs are stuck to you like glue. The only reason i can think of that would cause mobs to go straight for the dps is if the dps are using single target direct damage on a mob you arent focusing on. AoE should never give you a problem. Marking the first kill gives you another advantage that you now have it targetted for taunting if someone does go nuts during your short burnout of runes at the start of an aoe trash pull.
I didn't look at your gear/spec, but just keep in mind that gear will make a large difference.
something that has helped me is macroing a raid icon to the ability i use on my main target. That way its always shown what mob im focused on.
Howling Blast is awesome, be sure to use obliterate liberally to get the rime proc.
Ive had threat problems with ulduar geared people who decide to come DPS a heroic with me where their gear is just obscenely awesome compared to mine but thats about it.
Howling Blast is awesome, be sure to use obliterate liberally to get the rime proc.
Ive had threat problems with ulduar geared people who decide to come DPS a heroic with me where their gear is just obscenely awesome compared to mine but thats about it.
Basically what everyone else has already said, the dps need to learn to play. The problem is most players think it's the tanks job to hold agro no matter what. It's just as much their job to not pull agro as it is for the tank to hold it, it takes everyone involved.
Even aoe-ing mobs you should be marking. When I tank I always mark the primary mob. When he dies I remark the next one.
Even aoe-ing mobs you should be marking. When I tank I always mark the primary mob. When he dies I remark the next one.
Therion wrote:
While tanking takes practice and experience
Very true.
Raolan wrote:
after I tab tend to become a scramble
Don't scramble. Don't panic.
Stay in control or have a solid plan to regain it. As others have said you are #2 on threat as long as the mob isn't eating a healer it's ok.
Panicking about one mob that is after a DPS can quickly lead to 4 mobs running free.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
If you have a rogue and they're willing to hold off on Tricks until they're ready to FoK the mobs ... that can help out on AoE threat quite a bit. Granted, it's not a perfect solution, but I lot of rogues I've run with are window-lickers who forget that they have that little ability (+15% tank dmg for 6 seconds + all of the rogue's aggro onto the tank for those 6 seconds).
I can think of no reason why a rogue wouldn't use tricks of the trade on any kind of pull. Pre-cast it on the tank beforehand, and go flat out on dps from the very beginning. Good for the rogue, good for the tank. The tank also gets +10% damage while the ability lasts which really helps their tps.
a hunters misdirect--multishot wouldn't hurt either if you have one in the group....and since there are 80 million on each server, is it possible to group without a hunter? Regardless, these are all things that DPS should be doing anyway if they have some type of ability to help the tank get that threat higher.
Quote:
I can think of no reason why a rogue wouldn't use tricks of the trade on any kind of pull. Pre-cast it on the tank beforehand, and go flat out on dps from the very beginning. Good for the rogue, good for the tank. The tank also gets +10% damage while the ability lasts which really helps their tps.
I wouldn't pre-cast it. TotT's duration isn't that long. Precasting it can easily lose 30% of the threat.
I'd macro it into FoK with your tank's name. When it is up and you use FoK, it'll use TotT, too.
[EDIT]
Nevermind, disregard this. I forgot TotT starts its timer when you use an ability.
Edited, May 29th 2009 1:19pm by idiggory
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
Quoted Text
You always pre-cast Tricks to the tank before the pull. Always. Read the description of the spell here.
Cheers.
I beat you to it, muahahaha.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Not specific to DK tanking, but like everyone I've had cases of silly 1337 DPSers constantly pulling aggro and not listening to what me, the tank, and the healer were asking. Mind you, we were simply asking for a 5 second delay before he went ape. We weren't always wiping but it was closer than it should have been and often resulted in downtime after every fight. This was a guildee so we weren't going to be absolutely horrible to him but it got to the point the healer and I were talking about it and I laid it out simple:
"Anyone pulls aggro but me you don't heal them"
Worked for us - after about 3 deaths of said threat happy DPSers they learned and quit doing it.
Granted in a PUG you'd have to make sure the healer wasn't a friend of the DPS or that'd likely be the end of that PUG.
Just wanted to throw this out there since a few others have replied with "just let them tank it" - that's fine and dandy but if your healer freaks and tries to heal them and you things can sometimes downward spiral quickly.
"Anyone pulls aggro but me you don't heal them"
Worked for us - after about 3 deaths of said threat happy DPSers they learned and quit doing it.
Granted in a PUG you'd have to make sure the healer wasn't a friend of the DPS or that'd likely be the end of that PUG.
Just wanted to throw this out there since a few others have replied with "just let them tank it" - that's fine and dandy but if your healer freaks and tries to heal them and you things can sometimes downward spiral quickly.
TherionSaysWhat wrote:
You always pre-cast Tricks to the tank before the pull. Always. Read the description of the spell here.
I could be in the wrong here, but I'll sometimes wait a few seconds after opening to cast Tricks. Garrote > Hunger For Blood > Slice and Dice really doesn't generate much aggro and takes about 3 seconds. I'm much more likely to cast Tricks after that initial sequence and then go to town either with Mut --> Envenom or with FoK. Adds more threat to the tank, and while I lose out on some energy, IMO it's worth it if you have a tank with aggro issues.
Anyway, that's more of a Rogue forum topic, sorry I'll let y'all get back to DKing it up here. :)
Quote:
I could be in the wrong here, but I'll sometimes wait a few seconds after opening to cast Tricks. Garrote > Hunger For Blood > Slice and Dice really doesn't generate much aggro and takes about 3 seconds. I'm much more likely to cast Tricks after that initial sequence and then go to town either with Mut --> Envenom or with FoK. Adds more threat to the tank, and while I lose out on some energy, IMO it's worth it if you have a tank with aggro issues.
Anyway, that's more of a Rogue forum topic, sorry I'll let y'all get back to DKing it up here. :)
Anyway, that's more of a Rogue forum topic, sorry I'll let y'all get back to DKing it up here. :)
But we are saying to use a Rogue as a threat tool in order to help against those DpS that won't wait for the tank to get threat, so having TotT>FoK ASAP is important.
But, this is specifically for trash, where there are many mobs. On bosses, It should be fine--DKs usually have high ST aggro, and it is easy to taunt a single mob until you get a good foothold.
IDrownFish wrote:
Anyways, you all are horrible, @#%^ed up people
lolgaxe wrote:
Never underestimate the healing power of a massive dong.
Quote:
I could be in the wrong here, but I'll sometimes wait a few seconds after opening to cast Tricks...
I would consider waiting if Tricks wasn't a GCD. At the start of the Mutilate cycle (as in your post) there are few GCDs (or Energy) to waste and I'd suggest that you're getting more bang for your buck pre-casting Tricks rather than popping it after HfB/SnD. Remember as well that the timer doesn't start until the first damaging ability (i.e. Garrote in your example) goes off. So that's a "free" GCD in the Tricks effective range allowing your first Mutilate to land in the range.
Tricks at the pull is there to help snap aggro to the tank more than anything. They're getting your aggro, sure but they're mainly getting a damage coefficient to their openers (Judgements, Swipes, Devastate, etc). Snap aggro is best used as early as possible. Ergo my advice to pre-cast it.
It's also wise to note here that you're not always going to be popping Garrote.
Hmmm... yeah, probably should have moved this discussion to the rogue forum but it's good for tanks to know this kinda stuff as well. /shrug
EDIT:
Quote:
...to help against those DpS that won't wait for the tank to get threat...
Not really where I'm coming at it (though also a fair point). Front-loading tank threat means more DPS earlier. And that equals faster clears. It's one of the reasons I don't worry about opening up with critical HBs in raid whereas in PUGs I do worry about that.... a lot. =(
Edited, May 31st 2009 7:22am by TherionSaysWhat
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