So I pick up my old Alliance warrior and level him to 80. I go fury and he does respectable damage despite being a fresh 80. Then, boom, TG nerf. So I go Arms and just run BGs -- I have pretty limited time nowadays anyway. Then I log on today and find -- they've cut Juggernaut crit bonus to 25%.
I'd respec again as prot but I'm sure that'll get nerfed in 3.3. This is ridiculous. There are two plate-wearing melee classes that are the most powerful and popular in the game and Blizz seems to instead be systemically nerfing the third. No way could an Arms warrior beat an equally-geared retadin or a Blood DK in straight-up combat to begin with, so why not nerf them? Why the Arms warrior, which is already, even with its 3.1 buffs, close to a free kill for any non-warlock? I'm baffled, and yes, I'm QQing, but this is silly.
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You must be kiddingFollow
I totally agree with you.
They are showing us what we could have, then they take it away form under our noses. All the while giving DK's and pala's everything they could ever want.
They are showing us what we could have, then they take it away form under our noses. All the while giving DK's and pala's everything they could ever want.
Everything they could want? They gave Pally an uber buff, then stripped them to the lowest tier DPS in the game. 3.1 supposedly changed this, but they slaughtered our PvP again so honestly, Pally is NOT among DK.
DK is OP, period. But Pally? Come on now.
DK is OP, period. But Pally? Come on now.
Are you kidding? Do you really think ret needs help in PvP right now? Plus, Holy Pally is the best PvP healer and Protadin best PvE tank. So two of your three trees remain strongest in game.
Quote:
DK is OP, period. But Pally? Come on now.
DKs are actually coming more in more in line with everybody else while paladins quite obviously manage to bubble right before the much needed nerfs time and time again. In fact, they're the ones who benefit the most from everybody whining about DKs as it allows them to just stand in the background and not be noticed.
ret pallies are wrong. just plain wrong. no other class can drop so much burst damage in so short a time span with so little prep-time (and such great survivability). even DK and warlock burst damage is reliant on other effects, casted spells that can be dispelled for warlocks and diseases + rune rotations that take time to build up to full strength (in the case of DK burst via empowered rune weapon).
ret pallies gave us a term my friends and i now use in pvp; getting "GCD'ed". it reflects how, in a single GCD, a paladin can decimate somebody. typically this involves a seal proc+white attack+judgement. but even if someone magages to survive that, youve got another two instants following within the next two GCD's, and theres nothing you can do to stop them short of stunning the paladin and hoping trinket is down.
pallies really need some conditions attached to their damage beyond "melee range". maybe some kind of rend/overpower connection a la arms warriors, or the immolate/incinerate/conflag trifecta that locks have (cant use judge unless a special dispellable CS debuff is on the target, and DS deals less damage to targets without judgements on them; would help mitigate the damn cleave arena teams out there). preferably something more elegant, but the important part is that pallies be changed from the faceroll class they are now to something that requires thought beyond usings skills as they come off of cooldown.
Edited, May 21st 2009 2:40am by Quor
ret pallies gave us a term my friends and i now use in pvp; getting "GCD'ed". it reflects how, in a single GCD, a paladin can decimate somebody. typically this involves a seal proc+white attack+judgement. but even if someone magages to survive that, youve got another two instants following within the next two GCD's, and theres nothing you can do to stop them short of stunning the paladin and hoping trinket is down.
pallies really need some conditions attached to their damage beyond "melee range". maybe some kind of rend/overpower connection a la arms warriors, or the immolate/incinerate/conflag trifecta that locks have (cant use judge unless a special dispellable CS debuff is on the target, and DS deals less damage to targets without judgements on them; would help mitigate the damn cleave arena teams out there). preferably something more elegant, but the important part is that pallies be changed from the faceroll class they are now to something that requires thought beyond usings skills as they come off of cooldown.
Edited, May 21st 2009 2:40am by Quor
Scholar
30 posts
Glyph of Rapid Charge - CD reduction changed from 20% to 7%.
Who the fsck came up with 7%?! But, why change it??
<back to lvling my priest and hunter>
*edit: fixed glyph name (nothing really rapid about it now tbh...)
Edited, May 21st 2009 6:34am by Zyven
Who the fsck came up with 7%?! But, why change it??
<back to lvling my priest and hunter>
*edit: fixed glyph name (nothing really rapid about it now tbh...)
Edited, May 21st 2009 6:34am by Zyven
Whell imagine 3 arms warriors in a group on a 3 vs 3 fight (or 2vs2) having ventrilo or TS....triple charge on ..ehm.. one ,lets say a clothie and then triple crit...(hm..resilience plays also part there) then the priest is gone. This is merely a though that I could figure about this nerf. The only reason I m thinking of it is because there has also been a nerf to the glyph of charging from 20% to 7%...so I guess both matters have some common grounds ...or somehow they must be connected, am not sure though if this is the actual case or if they have other stuff on their mind
Well, but imagine three rets all hammer of justiceing a clothie and hitting crusader strike and DS....three arcane mages all using arcane barrage.... The fact that arms warriors had a guaranteed crit every 10 secs doesnt change the fact that they have no outs and that their 51-pt talent is of highly, highly situational use. I havent looked at arena standings lately but did Arms warriors suddenly overtake retadins and DKs? It's ridiculous, I've yet to hear a decent explanation.
Quote:
Whell imagine 3 arms warriors in a group on a 3 vs 3 fight
Hmm...imagine the CC you could use against them. Even if you did manage to kill the priest (which I doubt you could unless his team mates were asleep) if the two people left were a good combo they could probably take out all three warriors. Not to mention you can see three warriors doing a straight charge at you, it's not very subtle and pretty easy to counter. A single frost mage could grind all three of them to a virtual halt while the other two team members go to town.
There's not much arguing with the OP on this one. Warriors are due for a nice change in mechanics or something. Warrior is a stripped down antiquated purely melee class and it's beginning to show. Not that a pure melee class can't be solid in PvP...i.e. rogue, but seriously, jazz it up a bit.
Blizz is just experimenting on how to buff warrior because they know warriors need a buff, it's just they keep changing their minds on how to do it.
I think the juggernaut thing probably resulted in PvE warriors withdrawing from their targets to charge on each cooldown of charge and they decided "this is not the way arms is meant to be played".
They're going all random solutions and going wrong all the time, it's only a matter of time until they give us an iwin button or give us so many leftovers of attempts of solutions that we end up imba from that.
I think the juggernaut thing probably resulted in PvE warriors withdrawing from their targets to charge on each cooldown of charge and they decided "this is not the way arms is meant to be played".
They're going all random solutions and going wrong all the time, it's only a matter of time until they give us an iwin button or give us so many leftovers of attempts of solutions that we end up imba from that.
I dont think warriors in PvE prefer to do that because hitting something else apart the tanks target is extremely dangerous. Also its a bit of waisting time to charge and crit on some mob ( especially if that target is isolated) since a melee DPS would like to stay close to packed Groups in order to use his aoe abilities.
AoE DPS (bladestorm , sweeping strikes) > 1 mob Crit
3 retri paladins , 3 Warrios , 3 this , 3 that.... maybe there shouldnt be a 3 of a kind in a pvp Group?
The iwin button is mine :)
AoE DPS (bladestorm , sweeping strikes) > 1 mob Crit
3 retri paladins , 3 Warrios , 3 this , 3 that.... maybe there shouldnt be a 3 of a kind in a pvp Group?
The iwin button is mine :)
Blizz has innovated themselves into a corner with warriors.
Once upon a time, there were different levels of dps among classes. Rogues had the highest melee dps but were the squishiest. Pallies were the hardest to kill but ergo had the lowest level of dps. The concept of the warrior was just pure hand to hand damage and plate armor -- nothing else. No stealth, no shapeshifting, no totems, no bubble, etc.
Then Blizz decided that all dps had to have the same damage output. So indestructible pallies were out dpsing rogues. At least rogues could vanish and stunlock. There was nothing a warrior could do that a ret couldnt do (huge melee damage while wearing plate). Then, to top it off, the DK was born -- another plate-wearing class, this time with some decent ranged attacks, high dps, a pet. All the remaining melee classes still had their nifty abilities -- druids could ditch snares, shammies could drop totems, etc, but warriors had literally nothing.
Blizz has been trying to find a way out ever since. But frankly the only way is to make warriors hit harder than dks and rets, since they lack the invulnerability/pet/self heal abilities of those classes. That would go against the entire new, all-classes-are-equal ethos, though. So Blizz keeps buffing warriors and frantically nerfing them because it doesnt want to admit that thats the only way to make them a vaguely interesting class.
Don't get me wrong -- I loved leveling my warrior. I have a feral and an enhancer, for example, and love the fact that the warrior is more stripped down and doesnt have ******* buttons, cant run. I like the challenge. But there's really no point in playing the guy now. In a PvP setting he's a free kill. He lacks a decent PvE damage tree. And I already have a tank.
Once upon a time, there were different levels of dps among classes. Rogues had the highest melee dps but were the squishiest. Pallies were the hardest to kill but ergo had the lowest level of dps. The concept of the warrior was just pure hand to hand damage and plate armor -- nothing else. No stealth, no shapeshifting, no totems, no bubble, etc.
Then Blizz decided that all dps had to have the same damage output. So indestructible pallies were out dpsing rogues. At least rogues could vanish and stunlock. There was nothing a warrior could do that a ret couldnt do (huge melee damage while wearing plate). Then, to top it off, the DK was born -- another plate-wearing class, this time with some decent ranged attacks, high dps, a pet. All the remaining melee classes still had their nifty abilities -- druids could ditch snares, shammies could drop totems, etc, but warriors had literally nothing.
Blizz has been trying to find a way out ever since. But frankly the only way is to make warriors hit harder than dks and rets, since they lack the invulnerability/pet/self heal abilities of those classes. That would go against the entire new, all-classes-are-equal ethos, though. So Blizz keeps buffing warriors and frantically nerfing them because it doesnt want to admit that thats the only way to make them a vaguely interesting class.
Don't get me wrong -- I loved leveling my warrior. I have a feral and an enhancer, for example, and love the fact that the warrior is more stripped down and doesnt have ******* buttons, cant run. I like the challenge. But there's really no point in playing the guy now. In a PvP setting he's a free kill. He lacks a decent PvE damage tree. And I already have a tank.
agreed i just did 2s with a holy pali and we kept running into a ret pali/resto druid team. The ret pali would get the well geared holy pali to about 25% right off the bat while the resto druid could probably stay alive for 20 mins vs arms warrior
tuskerdu wrote:
Blizz has innovated themselves into a corner with warriors.
Once upon a time, there were different levels of dps among classes. Rogues had the highest melee dps but were the squishiest. Pallies were the hardest to kill but ergo had the lowest level of dps. The concept of the warrior was just pure hand to hand damage and plate armor -- nothing else. No stealth, no shapeshifting, no totems, no bubble, etc.
Then Blizz decided that all dps had to have the same damage output. So indestructible pallies were out dpsing rogues. At least rogues could vanish and stunlock. There was nothing a warrior could do that a ret couldnt do (huge melee damage while wearing plate). Then, to top it off, the DK was born -- another plate-wearing class, this time with some decent ranged attacks, high dps, a pet. All the remaining melee classes still had their nifty abilities -- druids could ditch snares, shammies could drop totems, etc, but warriors had literally nothing.
Blizz has been trying to find a way out ever since. But frankly the only way is to make warriors hit harder than dks and rets, since they lack the invulnerability/pet/self heal abilities of those classes. That would go against the entire new, all-classes-are-equal ethos, though. So Blizz keeps buffing warriors and frantically nerfing them because it doesnt want to admit that thats the only way to make them a vaguely interesting class.
Don't get me wrong -- I loved leveling my warrior. I have a feral and an enhancer, for example, and love the fact that the warrior is more stripped down and doesnt have oh-sh*t buttons, cant run. I like the challenge. But there's really no point in playing the guy now. In a PvP setting he's a free kill. He lacks a decent PvE damage tree. And I already have a tank.
Once upon a time, there were different levels of dps among classes. Rogues had the highest melee dps but were the squishiest. Pallies were the hardest to kill but ergo had the lowest level of dps. The concept of the warrior was just pure hand to hand damage and plate armor -- nothing else. No stealth, no shapeshifting, no totems, no bubble, etc.
Then Blizz decided that all dps had to have the same damage output. So indestructible pallies were out dpsing rogues. At least rogues could vanish and stunlock. There was nothing a warrior could do that a ret couldnt do (huge melee damage while wearing plate). Then, to top it off, the DK was born -- another plate-wearing class, this time with some decent ranged attacks, high dps, a pet. All the remaining melee classes still had their nifty abilities -- druids could ditch snares, shammies could drop totems, etc, but warriors had literally nothing.
Blizz has been trying to find a way out ever since. But frankly the only way is to make warriors hit harder than dks and rets, since they lack the invulnerability/pet/self heal abilities of those classes. That would go against the entire new, all-classes-are-equal ethos, though. So Blizz keeps buffing warriors and frantically nerfing them because it doesnt want to admit that thats the only way to make them a vaguely interesting class.
Don't get me wrong -- I loved leveling my warrior. I have a feral and an enhancer, for example, and love the fact that the warrior is more stripped down and doesnt have oh-sh*t buttons, cant run. I like the challenge. But there's really no point in playing the guy now. In a PvP setting he's a free kill. He lacks a decent PvE damage tree. And I already have a tank.
It's not so difficult. For example, if it were up to me I'd go this way:
You have 3 plate wearing face-to-face classes I refer to as "heavy melee". You put all 3 next to each other in their respective DPS flavors. All 3 get about the same DPS, but a completely different personality.
Paladin: Defensive caster type. With heals, buffs, cleanses, etc. This is the guy that will take a fireball to the face and cleanse the DoT and heal the damage.
DK: Offensive caster type. Coming in 3 different specs bla bla. This is the guy that will throw a ugly things to the face of anyone.
Warrior: The physical type. Combat abilties and a lot of toughness. This is the guy that will take a fireball to the face because it won't stop him from continuing to chop things to pieces.
And to get there, I'd give warriors certain different qualities that that make them be the type. For example greatly increased HP and a passive that reduces DoT damage suffered and the duration of snare effects. I don't just mean an extra buff, I mean so much of it that it makes them different from the other classes.
The other thing that warriors need is to have the abilities become more effective and less numerous. We have too many buttons and too little abilities.
Heroic Strike and Cleave I would change them so that they still generate rage. Disarm so that it disarms all weapons, even the wand. And Demo Shout could just be merged into thunder clap, I really just have both buttons next to each other because I just click both each time I use them. Also, pummel and shield bash should already have their stance restrictions lifted and probably be merged with something "if you have a shield equipped you will shield bash instead bla bla". I would drive the changes along those lines instead of going with "lets give them a useless ability to remove 1 immunity every 5 minutes but for 25 rage and in the stance that isn't used against 1 of the 2 classes that will use an immunity". Also, charge/intercept/intervene could be merged too. Not much reason at the moment for not just making charge be intercept, one stuns for 2 sec and the other for 3.
Note that Blizz has been moving in the opposite direction, though. Rets used to be a defensive melee class and now out-burst every other one. And it's DKs who benefit from all sorts of damage mitigation and regeneration, not warriors. I don't see a solution in sight.
The bind is interestingly like that of mages in TBC. Blizz tried to more or less equalize ranged dps and that seriously screwed the one ranged class w/out a pet or healing abilities. The only way mages have been made viable (and indeed, very desireable) in WotLK is by getting an immense buff allowing them to outburst everyone else.
Basically, unless Blizz returns to a dps hierarchy, there's no way a class like a warrior can be made competitive. (And note, they shouldn't even top that hierarchy, just be above rets and dks.)
The bind is interestingly like that of mages in TBC. Blizz tried to more or less equalize ranged dps and that seriously screwed the one ranged class w/out a pet or healing abilities. The only way mages have been made viable (and indeed, very desireable) in WotLK is by getting an immense buff allowing them to outburst everyone else.
Basically, unless Blizz returns to a dps hierarchy, there's no way a class like a warrior can be made competitive. (And note, they shouldn't even top that hierarchy, just be above rets and dks.)
Well atm arms seems to be doing more burst than ret.
Actually I play ret too and it's getting annoying. Blizz balanced the DPS factoring IN exorcism, even with exorcism paladins do not outdps the others unless they outgear them, that's PvE. Then for PvP exorcism is completely removed, it currently doesn't even work on undead or demons or anything, it's completely disabled. Which pretty much leaves us relying on survivability again, except the survivability isn't as much as you'd expect unless you're fighting certain specific (and overpopulated) classes that are just weak against paladins.
Sure, from a warrior point of view paladins hit hard, bubble and heal. But for other classes paladin isn't even an effort. And Paladins, just like DKs, dont have mortal strike, in addition to not having snares or silence or deathgrip and only interrupt with the stun spell unless you count repentance as an interrupt.
Actually I play ret too and it's getting annoying. Blizz balanced the DPS factoring IN exorcism, even with exorcism paladins do not outdps the others unless they outgear them, that's PvE. Then for PvP exorcism is completely removed, it currently doesn't even work on undead or demons or anything, it's completely disabled. Which pretty much leaves us relying on survivability again, except the survivability isn't as much as you'd expect unless you're fighting certain specific (and overpopulated) classes that are just weak against paladins.
Sure, from a warrior point of view paladins hit hard, bubble and heal. But for other classes paladin isn't even an effort. And Paladins, just like DKs, dont have mortal strike, in addition to not having snares or silence or deathgrip and only interrupt with the stun spell unless you count repentance as an interrupt.
arms burst is nowhere near what a ret can do, and its largely a consequence of SotM/SotB.
basically, a ret can get six attacks in a 1.5s period, each of which can crit, whereas a warrior gets a max of three. for the ret, you have a white attack + seal proc with two yellows + two seal procs (one for each yellow). so assuming the ret auto attacks at the 0s mark and hits a skill (say CS) at the 0s mark, youve got four damaging attacks coming instantly, with another two 1.5s away (one global). adding the seal on top of the regular attack makes it crit-like in the sense that its extra unmitigated damage (being holy). now, add in the fact that both the normal attack AND the seal proc can crit, and you can get some truly obscene burst.
as for warriors, the best we can hope for is a white attack (or heroic strike) + two skills. if we time procs *just right* we can snag two overpowers + white attack + MS in a 3.5s period. however, that requires some setup and perfect timing; if you miss the first overpower by a second youre having TfB overlap on itself, meaning youve missed the chance for the highest burst youll get outside of a full rage execrit on a sub-20% target.
the other part, which GC said is going to be addressed (eventually) is that ret damage is unconditional. that is to say, they dont have any limitations on their damage aside from cooldown and melee range, something shared by all melee classes. however, warriors, rogues, dks, and ferals are all limited by something; in the case of warriors its a combination of rage and the need for certain debuffs to be present in order to maximize dps (sunder, rend, and SD procs). for rogues and ferals its a combo of energy limitations, positioning and combo points. dks are reliant on havig diseaes up (cleansable) in order to get the highest damage possible. a ret pally can literally walk up to someone and hit them for as hard as they can regardless of any conditions present on the ret pally or the target.
ive seen some ideas for adding this conditionality to rets, ranging from all attacks do 20% less damage to a target who isnt judged (meaning you want to keep judge off of the pallies target if you can, but overvaluing dispellers even more than they already are) to some kind of vengeance-based attack system, where you expend a stack (or more) of vengeance in order to power some kind of ability. im personally more fond of the second idea, but we'll see what blizzard has in mind.
basically, a ret can get six attacks in a 1.5s period, each of which can crit, whereas a warrior gets a max of three. for the ret, you have a white attack + seal proc with two yellows + two seal procs (one for each yellow). so assuming the ret auto attacks at the 0s mark and hits a skill (say CS) at the 0s mark, youve got four damaging attacks coming instantly, with another two 1.5s away (one global). adding the seal on top of the regular attack makes it crit-like in the sense that its extra unmitigated damage (being holy). now, add in the fact that both the normal attack AND the seal proc can crit, and you can get some truly obscene burst.
as for warriors, the best we can hope for is a white attack (or heroic strike) + two skills. if we time procs *just right* we can snag two overpowers + white attack + MS in a 3.5s period. however, that requires some setup and perfect timing; if you miss the first overpower by a second youre having TfB overlap on itself, meaning youve missed the chance for the highest burst youll get outside of a full rage execrit on a sub-20% target.
the other part, which GC said is going to be addressed (eventually) is that ret damage is unconditional. that is to say, they dont have any limitations on their damage aside from cooldown and melee range, something shared by all melee classes. however, warriors, rogues, dks, and ferals are all limited by something; in the case of warriors its a combination of rage and the need for certain debuffs to be present in order to maximize dps (sunder, rend, and SD procs). for rogues and ferals its a combo of energy limitations, positioning and combo points. dks are reliant on havig diseaes up (cleansable) in order to get the highest damage possible. a ret pally can literally walk up to someone and hit them for as hard as they can regardless of any conditions present on the ret pally or the target.
ive seen some ideas for adding this conditionality to rets, ranging from all attacks do 20% less damage to a target who isnt judged (meaning you want to keep judge off of the pallies target if you can, but overvaluing dispellers even more than they already are) to some kind of vengeance-based attack system, where you expend a stack (or more) of vengeance in order to power some kind of ability. im personally more fond of the second idea, but we'll see what blizzard has in mind.
For ret the uber bursts are rng dependent and will happen like once every 10 min unless your gear is very top quality and you're fighting someone that has insufficient resilience compared to your crit, but then blizz has had the stupidity of making the gear gap so large that a hunter in last tier arena gear can beat a fresh 80 warrior in melee.
Then who bursts more depends on the frame window you want to put it in. If you want to put it as a time window of 3 seconds then yes, ret has a pretty large 3sec burst. But I don't care about 3-sec, I care about how much you can shorten the time window for 25K damage. Lately I'm seeing arms reach the 25K damage mark in a very short time, it seems shorter than what it takes a ret. The addition of the mortal strike debuff makes it even better.
Recently I bought dual spec for my pally and tried holy spec. The gear was so totally trash it was a joke, my teammates were mocking me about my gear even. But I just had to get it into the BG to try out all the spells and tests the glyphs, I had no reason to worry much about getting good gear or anything. Of all the people that would attack me rets were the ones with the least probability of killing me because they had no way to stop me from healing and the burst is rarely enough to outdps the heals. The gear I was using was actually healer gear, but very low quality, about 13K HP, all of it quest rewards from northrend quests. Rets only had a chance to kill me if they stunned, and even when they did there was a pretty good chance to recover and heal to full if I survived the stun. I think I know what's their difficulty on getting the burst done through the stun, they have to DPS randomly to get me to 50% so that they had a good chance on the stun, but it's nearly impossible to time the stun so that your cooldowns can be used during that stun.
The ones that seemed to kill me with the most ease were ele shaman, surv hunters and arms warriors in that order. The ones that had to wait until I ran OOM so that they could kill me were ret pally and non-unholy DKs. Rogues... some were able to kill me quick some I could lol at while I continued healing, I assume because of the lack of a keybind for kick.
Of course, I tested by going into bgs, not by dueling everyone I saw. So the test lacks completeness in the sense that I would only be attacked by people who actually paid attention to attack a pally that is standing nearby healing. The few moonkins I saw didn't attack me, also other specs and classes I may not have come across, so I don't know.
Then who bursts more depends on the frame window you want to put it in. If you want to put it as a time window of 3 seconds then yes, ret has a pretty large 3sec burst. But I don't care about 3-sec, I care about how much you can shorten the time window for 25K damage. Lately I'm seeing arms reach the 25K damage mark in a very short time, it seems shorter than what it takes a ret. The addition of the mortal strike debuff makes it even better.
Recently I bought dual spec for my pally and tried holy spec. The gear was so totally trash it was a joke, my teammates were mocking me about my gear even. But I just had to get it into the BG to try out all the spells and tests the glyphs, I had no reason to worry much about getting good gear or anything. Of all the people that would attack me rets were the ones with the least probability of killing me because they had no way to stop me from healing and the burst is rarely enough to outdps the heals. The gear I was using was actually healer gear, but very low quality, about 13K HP, all of it quest rewards from northrend quests. Rets only had a chance to kill me if they stunned, and even when they did there was a pretty good chance to recover and heal to full if I survived the stun. I think I know what's their difficulty on getting the burst done through the stun, they have to DPS randomly to get me to 50% so that they had a good chance on the stun, but it's nearly impossible to time the stun so that your cooldowns can be used during that stun.
The ones that seemed to kill me with the most ease were ele shaman, surv hunters and arms warriors in that order. The ones that had to wait until I ran OOM so that they could kill me were ret pally and non-unholy DKs. Rogues... some were able to kill me quick some I could lol at while I continued healing, I assume because of the lack of a keybind for kick.
Of course, I tested by going into bgs, not by dueling everyone I saw. So the test lacks completeness in the sense that I would only be attacked by people who actually paid attention to attack a pally that is standing nearby healing. The few moonkins I saw didn't attack me, also other specs and classes I may not have come across, so I don't know.
Well, a holy pally is a pretty special case; undoubtably the toughest for any melee class to kill. Even with MS I often watch rets dps down trees and other healers faster than me. And now to top if off I see Blizz is raising the charge cd with juggernaut in the latest patch.
Playing an arms warrior (and a frost mage and an ele shaman and a feral druid) I have not seen my warrior outburst the other classes. But something must be up for Blizz to be coming down so hard on Arms. Can someone explain what it is? Also, I refuse to play my retadin because of the whole hating-the-flavor-of-the-month thing, but I have not seen any evidence that rets are being outbursted by other classes. The number of BGs I run where the top x kills are every single pally in the BG is just comical. My mage would rather fight a ret than, say, a lock or a hunter but none of my other toons would. And, again, last I checked, rets absolutely dominated arena rankings. Plus, again as a mitigating factor, pallies boast the best PvP healer and best PvE tank.
This is drifting into a warrior vs pally discussion (partly due to me, I acknowledge), but I'm really wondering if anyone else has seen evidence that Juggernaut made Arms the best PvP spec in game. Since it has currently gotten a ton of nerf attention since it debuted something must be up; I don't believe Blizz simply has it in for some classes though, wow, it really appears like it here.
Playing an arms warrior (and a frost mage and an ele shaman and a feral druid) I have not seen my warrior outburst the other classes. But something must be up for Blizz to be coming down so hard on Arms. Can someone explain what it is? Also, I refuse to play my retadin because of the whole hating-the-flavor-of-the-month thing, but I have not seen any evidence that rets are being outbursted by other classes. The number of BGs I run where the top x kills are every single pally in the BG is just comical. My mage would rather fight a ret than, say, a lock or a hunter but none of my other toons would. And, again, last I checked, rets absolutely dominated arena rankings. Plus, again as a mitigating factor, pallies boast the best PvP healer and best PvE tank.
This is drifting into a warrior vs pally discussion (partly due to me, I acknowledge), but I'm really wondering if anyone else has seen evidence that Juggernaut made Arms the best PvP spec in game. Since it has currently gotten a ton of nerf attention since it debuted something must be up; I don't believe Blizz simply has it in for some classes though, wow, it really appears like it here.
tuskerdu wrote:
Well, a holy pally is a pretty special case; undoubtably the toughest for any melee class to kill. Even with MS I often watch rets dps down trees and other healers faster than me. And now to top if off I see Blizz is raising the charge cd with juggernaut in the latest patch.
Playing an arms warrior (and a frost mage and an ele shaman and a feral druid) I have not seen my warrior outburst the other classes. But something must be up for Blizz to be coming down so hard on Arms. Can someone explain what it is? Also, I refuse to play my retadin because of the whole hating-the-flavor-of-the-month thing, but I have not seen any evidence that rets are being outbursted by other classes. The number of BGs I run where the top x kills are every single pally in the BG is just comical. My mage would rather fight a ret than, say, a lock or a hunter but none of my other toons would. And, again, last I checked, rets absolutely dominated arena rankings. Plus, again as a mitigating factor, pallies boast the best PvP healer and best PvE tank.
This is drifting into a warrior vs pally discussion (partly due to me, I acknowledge), but I'm really wondering if anyone else has seen evidence that Juggernaut made Arms the best PvP spec in game. Since it has currently gotten a ton of nerf attention since it debuted something must be up; I don't believe Blizz simply has it in for some classes though, wow, it really appears like it here.
Playing an arms warrior (and a frost mage and an ele shaman and a feral druid) I have not seen my warrior outburst the other classes. But something must be up for Blizz to be coming down so hard on Arms. Can someone explain what it is? Also, I refuse to play my retadin because of the whole hating-the-flavor-of-the-month thing, but I have not seen any evidence that rets are being outbursted by other classes. The number of BGs I run where the top x kills are every single pally in the BG is just comical. My mage would rather fight a ret than, say, a lock or a hunter but none of my other toons would. And, again, last I checked, rets absolutely dominated arena rankings. Plus, again as a mitigating factor, pallies boast the best PvP healer and best PvE tank.
This is drifting into a warrior vs pally discussion (partly due to me, I acknowledge), but I'm really wondering if anyone else has seen evidence that Juggernaut made Arms the best PvP spec in game. Since it has currently gotten a ton of nerf attention since it debuted something must be up; I don't believe Blizz simply has it in for some classes though, wow, it really appears like it here.
Ret has trouble trying to kill any healer. Been doing some BGs with my pally right now on ret and killing any kind of healer is a pita and it's connected to the lack of anti-heals and lack of interrupt and the way in which the stun relates to your bursty cooldowns. The best moment to stun is right after you used them, but if you do, your cooldowns will not be up during the stun and your stun will be wasted. And trees seem harder to me because they never run out of mana, granted in BGs I tend to kill tress easier but that's because they tend to shift out of tree form to cast some spell and that's when I stun, trees that stay in tree form are probably the hardest for me.
Still, in BGs ret pally for me is totally better than arms for one simple reason. If you're an arms warrior you go, pwn someone and after you killed someone and spill his guts all over the place you have 40% hp left. Food and bandages are slooooooooow, so if there isn't a healer around you're pretty much going to take on your next target with only 60%-70% hp depending on if you bandage or eat. And if you were DoTed during the fight you have no way to remove the DoTs and can't bandage until they wear off. With ret you can remove most DoTs and heal to full after each person you kill. Even if you had no mana left, drinking+healing is totally faster than bandages or food, to make it even better, you get to drink+food at the same time. So IMO Ret > Arms for BGs for this reason. Arms can't be better than ret unless you can be sure that you'll have a healer attending you all the time, and even then, you're vulnerable to being separated from your healer by a Death Grip or something like that.
Juggernaut itself isn't so amazing, but last I checked Intercept and Charge don't share cooldowns, and charge has the same cooldown of Improved intercept, in addition it can be reduced further with a glyph. Which means Jug = Intercept + Imp Intercept on separate cooldowns. That's kind of OP, but then even if it's OP you have to put it into context: Hunters have a talent that allows them to snare for 8 sec out of every 10, in addition to the entramping frost trap and disengage being an "intercept undoer" that has 5 sec less cooldown than intercept, a talent that can reduce the cooldown of disengage by 4 more seconds and pets that root 4-sec on a 40-sec cooldown and snare 6-sec on a 20-sec cooldown. So if you ask me if the nerf is justified I'd probably say yes, but if you put it in context Jug goes up against things that need a nerf themselves and arent getting nerfed, so then maybe not.
Edited, May 28th 2009 11:23am by xorq
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