Just a brief inquiry to all the feral DPS out there, but before that, a little background information. My DPS on single targets fluctuates a lot in raids, going as low as 2500 and as high as 4000. On fights like Loatheb and Thaddius I can push 5000-6000 with little difficulty thanks to the mob-based buffs. However, I feel my rotation is somewhat wrong.
The problem is, I clip my DoTs. A lot. Whenever I try to let them run their course I find myself out of energy at the wrong times and unable to refresh them soon as they expire. Then my DPS drops as I'm either waiting on energy or spending energy to get back to the optimum number of combo points, which in turn typically requires I then wait again for more energy.
On any single target fight my rotation is roughly this: Ravage (out of stealth) > Mangle > Rake > Tiger's Fury > Shred (until 5 combo points) > Savage Roar, then repeat this (minus the Tiger's Fury) until I have another 5 combo points to use Rip. I then fall into a cycle of Mangle/Shred spam, consistently refreshing Rake (often a little early), overlapping Savage Roar and clipping Rip a great deal. Sometimes I can sneak a Ferocious Bite in there when I see I have a lot of time on Rip but usually I find this ends up with Rip expiring and me having to wait a few seconds to reapply it due to energy or combo point constraints.
So now to my question. What should I do? Should I apply my DoTs and just sit on 5 combo points, doing white hits and some Shreds until the moment I need to reapply Rake, Rip and Savage Roar? Or spam all my abilities and clip my DoTs? Does DoT clipping really matter in the long run?
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Yes! Clipping your dots is a MAJOR dps loss. If something ticks 5 times and you clip it, you are losing 20% of that attacks damage and greatly decreasing the damage per energy of your attacks.
Just remmember, you don't need to have your energy bar sitting as close to zero as possible. As long as you don't waste energy by letting it get to 100, you can relax a bit and just hit your attacks when you get to about 80 energy. That way you are out of energy less at critical times and should be able to refresh your dots as needed rather than early or late.
Try downloading the FaceMauler add-on from curse to help get a feel for the rotation.
Just remmember, you don't need to have your energy bar sitting as close to zero as possible. As long as you don't waste energy by letting it get to 100, you can relax a bit and just hit your attacks when you get to about 80 energy. That way you are out of energy less at critical times and should be able to refresh your dots as needed rather than early or late.
Try downloading the FaceMauler add-on from curse to help get a feel for the rotation.
Another thing to consider, if you have the 5 combo points and its Rip and SR have a fair amount of time left you could FB. Big DPS spike.
I've never heard of the FaceMauler addon. I'll have to check it out.
I've never heard of the FaceMauler addon. I'll have to check it out.
I personally use DroodFocus to help me when I kitty-DPS. Also helps a bit in Bear to keep track of Lacerate stacks (uses the CP bar).
Monitors debuffs, buffs, DoT's, Savage Roar, Energy bar, CP's/Lacerate, Omen of Clarity. It even monitors Mongoose (or maybe any weapon proc? that's the thing that shows as the biceps icon). One of my favorite feature it that it tells you if you try to Shred and you're not behind your target. It really helps in raids when there are a lot of melee and spell effects and you can't tell your head from your butt. (There's also a cool shred/bleed screen effect when you crit a special attack, can be disable)
As for the rotation, yeah, you're hurting yourself clipping DoT's. As Rarebeast pointed out, clipping DoT's reduces the Damage:Energy ratio of your attacks which is really what kitty DPS is about, as you waste energy that could be spent on other abilities.
Lemme indulge my enormous ego here and link you to a recent post of mine related to kitty DPS. (Just mind that as people pointed out later Rake ticks every 3s rather than 2s, but for the sake of the example the principle is the same)
Other than that, I personally don't stealth. I prefer to put up FFF while running toward my enemy as it usually results in less time wasted reaching and positioning myself thanks to the specced speed buff. And honestly Ravage is just not worth 60 energy, it might just F up your initial rotation. (I mean, you can't even do Ravage -> Mangle -> Rake without taking a break or popping TF)
Initial rotations may vary, but this is what I use and would suggest: FFF while closing in -> Mangle -> Rake -> SR -> TF -> Berserk -> Shred to 5CP -> Rip -> Shred to 5CP (with Rake somewhere in there, only once it has fallen off, and Mangle as needed) -> SR. At this point Berserk should pretty much be over. After the initial rotation, it's a good time to let your energy regen but never let it reach 100, just Shred once if it gets too close.
FFF: Always a nice debuff. With the 3.1 change you probably will only have to put it up once for a fight. As it is, just try to fit it in a moment where you don't have anything more important to do. Clipping this has no consequence whatsoever.
Rake: Wait until it fades before you reapply it.
Mangle: Wait until there's 1-2s left, but don't let it fade. That'll make sure no bleed ticks during that split-second when Mangle is down.
SR: Try to always have it up, even if it means at some point you have to put it up at 2-3 CPs.
Rip: Properly specced/glyphed/geared, you should be back at 5CP before it fades, but do wait until it does before you reapply it. It's okay if you go "over" 5CP. Once you get comfy with your rotation/priority system, this will be the moment when you can do FB with Rip and SR both up and still a while to go.
So, yeah, that's probably more info and input than you asked for but... slow morning at work, really bored and not much to do. :/
Monitors debuffs, buffs, DoT's, Savage Roar, Energy bar, CP's/Lacerate, Omen of Clarity. It even monitors Mongoose (or maybe any weapon proc? that's the thing that shows as the biceps icon). One of my favorite feature it that it tells you if you try to Shred and you're not behind your target. It really helps in raids when there are a lot of melee and spell effects and you can't tell your head from your butt. (There's also a cool shred/bleed screen effect when you crit a special attack, can be disable)
As for the rotation, yeah, you're hurting yourself clipping DoT's. As Rarebeast pointed out, clipping DoT's reduces the Damage:Energy ratio of your attacks which is really what kitty DPS is about, as you waste energy that could be spent on other abilities.
Lemme indulge my enormous ego here and link you to a recent post of mine related to kitty DPS. (Just mind that as people pointed out later Rake ticks every 3s rather than 2s, but for the sake of the example the principle is the same)
Other than that, I personally don't stealth. I prefer to put up FFF while running toward my enemy as it usually results in less time wasted reaching and positioning myself thanks to the specced speed buff. And honestly Ravage is just not worth 60 energy, it might just F up your initial rotation. (I mean, you can't even do Ravage -> Mangle -> Rake without taking a break or popping TF)
Initial rotations may vary, but this is what I use and would suggest: FFF while closing in -> Mangle -> Rake -> SR -> TF -> Berserk -> Shred to 5CP -> Rip -> Shred to 5CP (with Rake somewhere in there, only once it has fallen off, and Mangle as needed) -> SR. At this point Berserk should pretty much be over. After the initial rotation, it's a good time to let your energy regen but never let it reach 100, just Shred once if it gets too close.
FFF: Always a nice debuff. With the 3.1 change you probably will only have to put it up once for a fight. As it is, just try to fit it in a moment where you don't have anything more important to do. Clipping this has no consequence whatsoever.
Rake: Wait until it fades before you reapply it.
Mangle: Wait until there's 1-2s left, but don't let it fade. That'll make sure no bleed ticks during that split-second when Mangle is down.
SR: Try to always have it up, even if it means at some point you have to put it up at 2-3 CPs.
Rip: Properly specced/glyphed/geared, you should be back at 5CP before it fades, but do wait until it does before you reapply it. It's okay if you go "over" 5CP. Once you get comfy with your rotation/priority system, this will be the moment when you can do FB with Rip and SR both up and still a while to go.
So, yeah, that's probably more info and input than you asked for but... slow morning at work, really bored and not much to do. :/
As before, I agree with everything Selverein says, and I want to put emphasis on how he used Berserk to get his rotation up and moving. The most important part of your dps is getting that rotation started! Getting your 5 point SR and 5 point Rip up immediately are very important.
Once they are up, you can get into your rotation of just keeping them up. I usually end up having time for a FB after each TF, since I am used to keeping my rotation up without it, when it's up, that extra energy gives me that extra time to throw in a FB in between.
A lot of people don't use Berserk until later on, and this ends up gimping them because it took them longer to get their rotation started, then since they use it a minute or two into the fight, it won't be up again before the fight is over. If you use it at the beginning, most fights take between 5-6 minutes, so you might end up getting to use it 3 times, even up to 4 time on longer fights like Kel!
Just saying :p
Once they are up, you can get into your rotation of just keeping them up. I usually end up having time for a FB after each TF, since I am used to keeping my rotation up without it, when it's up, that extra energy gives me that extra time to throw in a FB in between.
A lot of people don't use Berserk until later on, and this ends up gimping them because it took them longer to get their rotation started, then since they use it a minute or two into the fight, it won't be up again before the fight is over. If you use it at the beginning, most fights take between 5-6 minutes, so you might end up getting to use it 3 times, even up to 4 time on longer fights like Kel!
Just saying :p
Well I downloaded and installed Face Mauler last night. I have to say I like what it does. I'll have to do some testing to see how much of a difference in DPS I do with it vs. without it.
I tried out DroodFocus but I didn't like it much. The indicator for Shred was nice but it didn't really help me as much as I thought it would. I more so need an addon that tells me when I'm behind the target, not when I'm not. Due to lots of AOE and bodies around me it's hard to tell what direction most bosses are facing and my eyes are in 8 different places at once so I often don't even notice that my Shreds aren't going off because of my position. An addon that makes it clear when I'm good to Shred would do wonders for me.
I used to incorporate FB into my rotation heavily, I even specced fully into it. With the advent of 3.1 halving the crit bonus it gets from Rend and Tear I'm not so sure if I want to continue using it but if it ends up still being a viable filler would it make sense to spare 5 points to spec into the tier 1 talent that increases its damage? Even if I'm just using it to fill in gaps when Rip and Rake are fresh.
I used to incorporate FB into my rotation heavily, I even specced fully into it. With the advent of 3.1 halving the crit bonus it gets from Rend and Tear I'm not so sure if I want to continue using it but if it ends up still being a viable filler would it make sense to spare 5 points to spec into the tier 1 talent that increases its damage? Even if I'm just using it to fill in gaps when Rip and Rake are fresh.
Quote:
With the advent of 3.1 halving the crit bonus it gets from Rend and Tear I'm not so sure if I want to continue using it but if it ends up still being a viable filler would it make sense to spare 5 points to spec into the tier 1 talent that increases its damage? Even if I'm just using it to fill in gaps when Rip and Rake are fresh.
Shred + ArP + a 20% RnT damage bonus when mobs is bleeding = B.F. Truck
Plus those bleeds will crit.
I can see cat DPS easily taking all 10 points in the first tier of feral come patch time.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
I'll probably dump my leftover points in FA, but I won't take them away from other, most useful abilities. I prefer overall utility to up to 15% more damage on FB, although I know with a pure DPS spec and glyphs I'll get to use it much more often.
I could very easily see myself skipping the 5 points in Resto that I put towards reducing shapeshift mana costs and then the one below it that has a 4% increase to something different per form. For my cat form it's 4% crit (which we all know) and if it means I can put those points elsewhere into something new and more useful, I will. Then I'll just re-gem a little, I'm already over crit cap anyway so it's not a very big deal. I just hope the talent to make bleeds crit doesn't soak up a lot of points.
cat build
Has some extra points and some could easily move. The Swipe points could change into anything same with ILotP.
SI while more of a tanking thing is too cheap not to take. The FC point could go elsewhere at its level or lower.
If you run with the same group all the time you could... not... take... Mangle... That may be crazy talk but if some one else keeps the debuff up 100% of the time... I would never do it personally but still the option is there.
Haven't read up on glyph math in a few days so not sure how that is shaping up as of now.
Anyone as of yet planning on taking NI to reduce splash damage? Is there excessive raid damage in Ulduar that we know of? Low maintenance DPS is better DPS, regardless of my dislike for the talent.
Kind of getting rambly now so I'll stop.
Has some extra points and some could easily move. The Swipe points could change into anything same with ILotP.
SI while more of a tanking thing is too cheap not to take. The FC point could go elsewhere at its level or lower.
If you run with the same group all the time you could... not... take... Mangle... That may be crazy talk but if some one else keeps the debuff up 100% of the time... I would never do it personally but still the option is there.
Haven't read up on glyph math in a few days so not sure how that is shaping up as of now.
Anyone as of yet planning on taking NI to reduce splash damage? Is there excessive raid damage in Ulduar that we know of? Low maintenance DPS is better DPS, regardless of my dislike for the talent.
Kind of getting rambly now so I'll stop.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Tavarde wrote:
I'm already over crit cap
I'm not aware of a crit cap having been currently found in game.
After a point all attack can be either crits or glancing blows.
All other options on the hit table can be removed by either stats, hit and dodge, or attacking from behind, parry and block. Eventually crit pushes a regular hit off the table. This is the crit cap.
I forget the exact numbers but that is the logic behind it.
edit:
Source
Edited, Apr 1st 2009 4:56pm by Horsemouth
All other options on the hit table can be removed by either stats, hit and dodge, or attacking from behind, parry and block. Eventually crit pushes a regular hit off the table. This is the crit cap.
I forget the exact numbers but that is the logic behind it.
edit:
Quote:
From the front:
# 25% Glancing
# 48.5% crit/white hit
# 6.5% Dodge
# 15% Parry
# 5% Block (on mobs that can)
From the rear:
# 25% Glancing
# 68.5% crit/white hit
# 6.5% Dodge
# 0% Parry
# 0% Block
# 25% Glancing
# 48.5% crit/white hit
# 6.5% Dodge
# 15% Parry
# 5% Block (on mobs that can)
From the rear:
# 25% Glancing
# 68.5% crit/white hit
# 6.5% Dodge
# 0% Parry
# 0% Block
Source
Edited, Apr 1st 2009 4:56pm by Horsemouth
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Ah, so we're looking at ~75% then. There's definitely not reachable within current content. If it was, we probably would have seen some pretty severe nerfs or mechanic changes like what bears are getting.
Well there never really has been a crit cap specifically, more so a line that, once crossed, subjects crit to diminishing returns. I always thought that figure was 50% but I'm clearly wrong. I'm not yet at the crit cap but I'm fairly close and that's good enough for me :)
Quote:
Well there never really has been a crit cap specifically
No, there specifically is a point where more crit does absolutely nothing at all. A full and total hard cap.
Glancing blows can not be removed from the table. So by default there is a cap on the amount of crit. It is just virtually impossible to reach.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Well then I stand corrected again.
Here's a non-retarded and recent o-boards discussion about crit and hit. A quick read and troll free.
linkage
Attack table math. Good stuff.
linkage
Attack table math. Good stuff.
Hellbanned
idiggory wrote:
Drinking at home. But I could probably stand to get laid.
Quote:
Has some extra points and some could easily move. The Swipe points could change into anything same with ILotP.
SI while more of a tanking thing is too cheap not to take. The FC point could go elsewhere at its level or lower.
If you run with the same group all the time you could... not... take... Mangle... That may be crazy talk but if some one else keeps the debuff up 100% of the time... I would never do it personally but still the option is there.
Haven't read up on glyph math in a few days so not sure how that is shaping up as of now.
Anyone as of yet planning on taking NI to reduce splash damage? Is there excessive raid damage in Ulduar that we know of? Low maintenance DPS is better DPS, regardless of my dislike for the talent.
Kind of getting rambly now so I'll stop.
SI while more of a tanking thing is too cheap not to take. The FC point could go elsewhere at its level or lower.
If you run with the same group all the time you could... not... take... Mangle... That may be crazy talk but if some one else keeps the debuff up 100% of the time... I would never do it personally but still the option is there.
Haven't read up on glyph math in a few days so not sure how that is shaping up as of now.
Anyone as of yet planning on taking NI to reduce splash damage? Is there excessive raid damage in Ulduar that we know of? Low maintenance DPS is better DPS, regardless of my dislike for the talent.
Kind of getting rambly now so I'll stop.
On the first point, I would agree with ILotP but Swipe damage can help clear trash faster so I wouldn't dismiss it without an inner feeling of bitterness. That being said, they're "fixing" the AoE damage cap of Swipe in 3.1 so if we find out that it now reaches the cap too soon, I guess we'll be able to drop the talent for cat.
Sad thing about ILotP is that I'll likely use both my bear and cat builds to solo stuff and the healing makes a huge difference when you're alone, so I'll want it in both but might not have the points to afford it. Same with Infected Wounds. It's nice for PvP and solo, but I probably won't be able to pick it up in the cat build. :/
Agreed on SI, especially during progression. Might drop it later when people know the fights by heart. NI to reduce splash damage? That's PI's job, though I guess you just mean you're easier to heal after taking AoE damage. In that case, I guess, but really I dunno if it's worth it. Even when I didn't know the fights in Naxx I wouldn't take too much AoE damage.
About glyphs, the last info I got is the top 3 are SR, Shred and Berserk. However, I cannot wrap my head around the idea that Berserk would be better than Rip because of the cooldown and the way fights are, you might just extend Berserk into a phase where you have to move a lot or even be out of the boss' range. So I might pick Rip instead, it'll also make the rotation easier to keep up and probably allow for a few more FB's. One could also take Mangle as well. It won't be as effective DPS-wise, but it might ease your rotation. (Unglyphed Mangle really does feel short)
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