SoB/SotM Recoil Damage ThreadFollow

This is the first time anyone's actually threatened me over the Internet, so I'm really quite flattered. Hey! I have a great idea. I'll PM you my address, and you can pay the thousand-dollar air fare to come to Australia and drop by my house sometime. If you don't show, I'll assume you're a coward! And then I will publicly claim so in earshot of several people who don't give a **** whether you're a coward or not.

This isn't cowardice, Goggy. This is e-thuggery, which is one of the lowest lows one can steep to. You and I both know that we'll never meet. This was never a face-to-face confrontation. I'll admit it - I'm nicer in real life than I am on the Internet, because the real-life consequences of being a total douche are harder to bear. I'm willing to bet even Theo and bodhi are nicer in real life than they are on forums. When you threaten me bodily harm, over the Internet, and call me a coward because I am using the Internet, when we are both talking to each other over the Internet, it's not intimidating. It's laughable.

I'm a very forgiving person. Whenever you choose to swallow your pride and apologise, i'm willing to forgive. I've been offering you that chance for several posts as it is.



What makes me think I can offer you a fresh start? I did not start name calling. I offered you several posts with theory backed up by WWS reports and you didn't care. Instead you turned around and started calling me names because you didn't agree with my position. You offered nothing of value to contradict my view point. You NEVER HAVE IN THIS THREAD. So why can I offer it? Because I didn't start the name calling. You completely disregarded my arguments and called me names for it. So I have the right to offer you a chance to start fresh.

Explain to me what the difference is between this and penalties any other class has to put up with? Why do warriors have to put up with the increased damage debuff that Berserker stance gives them? Why can't rogues or shamans wear plate since they are melee dpsers too? Why can't Mages, Priests and Warlocks melee well? It's called class balance.

The recoil damage that SotM/SoB does is Ret's debuff. It might be a harsh one in gimmick fights and the fact is it does scale with the amount of damage you do but for now its here to stay so learn to deal with it.

I hear more QQ and thats what it is, QQ, then what I have heard from Arms Warriors that have been forced to reroll Deathknights because their dps tree is so broken its not viable for them to play their favourite class anymore.

Be grateful that you play in a day where Ret Paladins are not laughed at called lolret nor need to be twice as geared as those they are competing with to do comparable dps because of threat and mana return issues. Don't you think that the Veteran Ret Paladins here (Those that have been playing Ret for more then two or three months) would be agreeing with you if they thought there was a problem with the recoil damage of SotM/B? Of course they would.

The recoil exists solely to give us a reason to not use SoB. It's one thing to scale it back, it's another to remove it entirely. It'd make SoB the be-all and end-all, when really, you could just use SoC in the very, very few situations where SoB isn't viable.



I think you're missing the point of what he said.



Well, the people who've been playing for longer have more experience. Their opinion is more valuable. I mean, there's a reason people go and get PhDs; it's so they can say "I have a PhD, my opinion is valuable." And by your own admission, you find facts and figures boring and are too lazy to do the research yourself. QED, I guess.



That's great, but when you're fishing for new ideas, you don't fire all of your long-term employees and go pick people up on the street. You get your long-term employees together, get some new recruits together, hear the new recruit's ideas, and then listen to your expert's advice on those ideas.

Bottom line on SoB; ret paladins don't really give enough of a **** for it to be changed. The recoil is thoroughly meh. Outside of a few boss gimmicks, it's not an issue. For those isolated incidents, use SoC. Problem solved.

Goggy, this is why no-one likes you. It's because you say **** like this. Stop adding casual insults to the bottom of your posts, and you're golden.

People aren't ignoring you because you're wrong. They're ignoring you because you are superhumanly rude.



The point he was making is that all class trade skills in one area for skills in another area. Rogues do great melee DPS; they wear leather. Mages wear cloth and hit like your mother, they get ranged attacks. Paladins wear plate, do great melee DPS, and can heal themselves. They get an ability with a similar trade-off. Your response to this was 'Mages have ranged attacks' which isn't so much a refutation of his point as it is proof of it.

You've factually proven a whole pile of...nothing in this thread.

Yup...nothing.

Not a thing.

Now you're around to just repeating the same old insults.

How phenomenally dull.

I'm not sure whether I should request admin attention to see about locking this thread or leave it so that you end up with a base sub-default rating and then nobody would ever have to read your crap again unless they have their filter turned off.

For shame, Goggy. For shame.

ok, where to begin.

i rated you down for adding a comment that added nothing constructive to the thread, and was down right rude. had you just accepted it, or appoligized there, this would all be over. hell, you could have just ignored it completely. or just quitely rated me down, because in all reality, i didnt add anything constructive to the thread either. instead you chose the exact right response to **** even more people off. (i even used an emoticon!!! that makes it ok right . . . ?)

nobody jumped on MY bandwagon. everyone jump on your dumb *** for being a ****.




um your proof? check your karma score dude . . . .

and for why Ret paladins have the recoil, there was actually a blue posted that stated that the only reason we have it is to prevent farther homoginization of melee DPS. blizzard like this gimmick, it may be scaled lower or higher as needed, but it will be here. hell is was even in diablo 2 paladins. . . .

Edited, Apr 7th 2009 8:34am by RuenBahamut

Our self healing through Divine Storm and Judgment of Light alone are enough to cancel out this difference. What about the fact that we can heal ourselves when needed with either Insta FoLs or even LoH? These classes in the same situation are dead dps.



Can't agree with you either. Take note of that Warrior's Spells/damage/% and you will notice that his/her Bladestorm or Mortal strike talent (the 51 and 31 point talents in the Arms tree) are not represented in his dps rotation at all. Bloodthirst (a Fury talented spell) is though, signifying that this in fact isnt an Arms warrior but a hybrid spec that has invested at least 31 points into the fury tree. Find a warrior with at least 51 points in the Arms tree topping dps then come back. This is because they no longer exist. Arms Warriors => Deathknights now.



I never said anything about your level of intelligence. I was just outlining the fact that the new generation of Ret Paladins cannot appreciate where Ret has come from having not played it back in Vanilla or TBC before we were turned into the holy juggernaut of OPness then brought back down to the right amount of dps. Many Rets that are reading never had to sit there and chug mana pots on every cooldown or get owned because Ret threat mechanics left you dead after an unlucky string of SoC proc and crits. I will not start an arguement on whether your an intelligent adult or not because based on responses I have seen already about douchebaggery, twunts, twats or whatever else was posted I wouldnt want this thread to drop down to that level again. Entertaining as it was. We are starting over.

No. I am not some child that has no idea about the real world. I may not have a background in corporate business but my profession requires me to rely on experience and first hand research first and foremost. If you read my posts you will see that I apply that here too. For example I cleared Naxx as Ret over two months ago and have been offerring my advice based on successful clears. Not once did I die because of SotM's recoil effect only. Did I have better healers than what you had? Maybe, maybe not. Therefore based on my experiences and that of the other Rets I play with in WoW I believe SotM in its current form is fine.

I am yet to test out the difference on the PTR and until the changes go live I wouldnt worry about it too much. As much as Street loves to stir Ret Paladins up I'm sure he doesnt want to open up another can of (your favourite two capital letters) in the Paladin forums.



Edited, Apr 7th 2009 3:56pm by arthoriuss

I'm pretty sure you're the only person in this thread referencing anyone's post count. If anything, I have more experience raiding than you, and a lot of the experience involved reviewing WWS reports after botched runs and giving feedback to the raid leader on areas where segments or individuals within the raid group could improve.

My experience also comes from someone who has raided with a druid (all of my 25-man TBC raiding experience), a hunter, an enhancement shaman and now my paladin. My druid is resto now so I get to see things from the healer side of things.

See, here's the thing: when I started going over Kel'Thuzad WWS parses and saw our ret pallies damaging themselves for upwards of 50k on a given encounter, I was concerned. Then I came here and asked about it, but as someone who has leveled ret but raided exclusively prot I approached it from an angle of genuine curiosity. Rather than approach it from the point of view that I was right to be concerned and then argue with everyone, I actually walked away from the thread I made here with a better understanding of the situation rather than an epic pile of rate-downs and animosity. Good thing, too, because the rationale I was given for why SoB/SotM recoil is a bit irritating but not really that much of a threat is because my experience as a raiding tank (2 classes), dps (3 classes) and a healer (1 class) combined with the information I was given here to help fill out my understanding demonstrated what you refuse to acknowledge: if you look at the big picture (not just a Recount dps report and your health pool) you realize that SoB/SotM recoil really isn't that much of an issue.

You site mages and rogues and warlocks and all of these other classes, but you're overlooking the big picture. Mages, rogues, and warlocks don't bring passive raid healing from JoL. If you look at the big picture, a ret pally judging light will account for far more raid healing than they'll even come close to losing in health from recoil. In essence, you're bringing additional healing at the cost of a little health here and there, which means it's not an additional burden on the healers...it's actually giving them a bit of a break and shifting the healing around a bit.

If you were standing there whacking away with no healers, no JoL, no Divine Storm heals, or anything else of the sort, then ya...you'd slowly whittle your health away to nothing. If you look at the time frame for a ret paladin to go from a raid buffed 20k HP (which is low) to death in a 25-man raid from recoil damage alone with no outside or passive self heals, you'd see pretty clearly how trivial it is. A Wild Growth will top off your health from the recoil on a 10k judgement. A Chain Heal will account for up to 1/3 of your maximum health. Circle of Healing, Prayer of Mending...hell, a single Lifebloom from a reasonably geared resto druid and you're golden. That's part of why people say it's trivial. It's not like you're having to be assigned your own designated healer in raids to keep you from ganking yourself (unless you don't know the fights and judge an Understudy, and even then your guild has to be pretty fail if they haven't got the straggler Understudies down before your next judgement is off cooldown.)

It's possible that the healers in your raid group are simply sub-par, but regardless of what experience you've had that leads you to believe it's such a huge issue, the number show quite clearly that it's not.

You've only been asked (note: asked) to do two things in this thread: quantify your argument with some sort of meaningful infomration and knock it off with the lame, defensive insults. You've failed to do either. Of course, you're under no obligation to do anything anyone asks you here...but it's not like there are no consequences for disrespecting an entire community.

You're defensive because you responded poorly to the first few people in this thread who posted about why they didn't feel SoB/SotM recoil was as much of an issue as you seem to think it is and you were called down for it. You created that situation. Now you play the victim. All the big mean forum jerks with post counts higher than yours are out to get you!

'Cept...we're not...we just want you to post an intelligent argument without the insults or not post at all. That's all anyone has really asked of you, and I can't see why that's such a problem for you. You disrespected the community and they came down on you like a ton of bricks, yet for whatever reason you feel that you're the victim in this.

You're a victim, alright...a victim of your own ignorance and pompous stupidity.

But carry on, dear Goggy. Whether you finally get it and shut up, your base karma bottoms out, or this thread ends up locked...it doesn't matter. You've done about as much damage to your reputation in this thread as any self-destructive wad of emo angst could hope to do. If that was your goal, you've achieved it with astounding proficiency. If that wasn't your goal, you may want to rethink your approach.

looking back, this is actually quite flattering. that you would give me such credit.

however, it also very insulting to everyone else that you would assume that they could be moved or rallied by someone who is obviously so stupid and/or foreign. i mean, i didnt even use a kick *** catch phrase like . . yes we can . . .

Starts well...



Again you're referring to me, I wonder why that is? Why do you fail at realising that this isn't just me. Sorry but this is you being blinkered.



Quantified above but I'll repeat here for posterity. We're the only class that has to harm itself to this extent to achieve mid-table DPS. Make sure you read it this time. Oh sorry is that a lame insult? Maybe that's because you continually point the finger whilst continuously failing to acknowledge your own comments. An entire community? I only see the same three faces, coming up with the same tired comments, trying endlessly to prove themselves right, whilst continuously failing to realise that I always said it was not about being right, it's about an opinion and whether people are bothered about it.



Again we see your ability to be obtuse the nth degree. I responded to Ruen, who started this. If you fail to see that then there is no point in discussing this further. I don't need to play the victim, I'm big enough and ugly enough to fight my own battles, but if you keep returning to post lies then I'm going to take you to task on it.



It started to come round to that, until you, and others, went off-topic again and repeatedly try to make it sound like your the innocent guys here. I'll tell you something, which should not be a surprise, but who knows, repetitiveness will not make you right.



That's your opinion, personally I think the three of you have shown some degree of stupidity.



Again, I think your wrong. As I have said previously, but I'm sure it won't be the last time. I don't care about the karma system or what you and your partners in crime think you gain by rating me. I'm astonished that you think this thread is worth so much of your time, but then given the level of posting I have seen from the three of you, repetitive, obnoxious, unrelenting. I can only assume there's a lack of maturity.

My approach? As I have said, you want to insult me and take me on, then fine. I can look after myself. You want to try and make this some form of sermon about how you and your friends think this forums should run, then be prepared.

Edited, Apr 7th 2009 12:52pm by Goggy