ok, you really want this staying to the OP... very well. this will be long, and i'm sorry... most of you won't care, but Goggy, please stay with me... i'm going to adress the OP which is what you want discussion on.
first of all, i start right off and really don't want to read it any further...
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We are the only class that has to hurt itself (insert Emo Pally comments here) to do respectable DPS. Even then we aren't close to being top or even really good, even with us doing 2k dps to ourselves.
straight QQ... we might be the only ones... well... not really... i haven't kept up on priests, but last i knew their finishing move did damage back to them. um, a lock's "dps" maybe doesn't hurt him.... but if he doesn't use life tap, i'm pretty sure his dps will go down... so as best i can tell a lock has to hurt himself to do respectable dps... a hunter doesn't physically hurt himself, but intentionally reduces his damage for a limited time to do good overall dps... so yes, we may have the most consistent downside, but we're not the only ones... and anytime a kid says "but mommy, i'm the only one that..." noone denys that it's QQ.. why is it different here? you rate tommy down cause he called it QQ, but i bet you still hate hearing your kids say it...
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but now a judgement taking off 10k life makes us a severe sore spot on healers when the upcoming content is looking like it'll be tougher on healers anyways
um, maybe i'm wrong, but my judgement doesn't take 10k life off me... as far as the healing side.... next post in the thread by a healer shaman....
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Did EJ fall into QQs?
As a healer, I don't see how Martyr is any different than Lifetap. If these are such a liability that your healers can't keep up... something's wrong..
um, yeah.... need i comment? oh you say other classes saying it should be removed... i didn't get far in the threads, but i don't see it... this shaman healer seemed to think it was ok and you just need to learn to deal with it...
hmm, wait... further down in this guys post he has some suggestions... mostly pretty rediculous... but one of them is:
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- You can make decent arguments either way, however i feel the easiest solution would be to make SoC baseline at level 20, the low level DPS seal and make SoB its replacement at 64. Can leave the mechanics the same basically. If SoB without a penalty is too strong in its current form then can simply move a portion of the judgment damage into the seal damage (at greater than a 1:1 ratio in order to make up for the lost RV damage, or move it 1:1 and add seal crits to RV). Then to make up for the lost SA mana can either buff JotW or do something with DP similar to prot as suggested.
hmm, blizzard did this in their own way, but um... isn't this what blizz is doing? they've moved the damage from judgements to the seal and in doing so, reduced the recoil and spread it out so we're less likely to accidentally kill ourselves... so now that blizzard has done this on the ptr, why is this still coming up as an issue? they did listen... they took an idea that was out there and used it, or so it would seem.
ok, and the last post which brings me to why i really am responding again....
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Now which would you have in a raid, a Ret pally and his designated healer (because thats what it could come down to) or 2 extra dps?
so, they say a ret pally is a huge healing liability for a healer... and they say there's going to be more aoe damage which means this will be more of a problem... i've covered this already, but i'll admit it wasn't with solid math.. it was my guestimations... so now you keep complaining about it and i feel we need to see how much of a liability ret is going to be in the upcoming aoe content... will we need our own designated healer because we are so self-destructive?
assuming you are geared well from naxx... this is taking the top geared ret pally on my server now as and example (sorry if there's better to use, i just needed some realistic numbers to use...) this is assuming BoK, BoM, MotW, Flask of Endless Rage, Fish Feast and
this spec. this is looking him up using RAWR to add the buffs and get the info.
Drayeni on the kael'thas realm:
AP - 4752
SP - 1471
Betrayer of Humanity - (222.94dps/3.4 weapon speed)
Weapon damage - 2533
weapon speed - 2.90
crit% - 33.82 (54.82 judge crit)
4pc t7 = 10% DS/-1s judgement
glyph of judgement = 10% inc damage
AoW = 10% inc damage judgement & DS
overall damage increase = 21% (talents)
meta gem = 3% crit damage
i'm not calculating actual dps we'll be doing. just trying to calculate healer strain.
Judgement (11%AP+18%SP+26%WD) - 522.72+264.78+658.58 = 1446.08 x1.41 = 2039 (4200 crit)
Judgement recoil - 680 (1400 crit)
Seal - (48%WD) - 1215.84 x1.21 = 1471 (3030 crit)
Seal recoil - 147 (303 crit)
JoL (10%AP+10%SP) - 622 x1.05 = 653
Divine Storm (110%WD) - 2786.3 x1.41 = 3929 (8093 crit)
DS heal - 982 (2023 crit)
self only during a 2 min average:
17 judgements (7.7 reg/9.3 crits)
12 DS (8 reg/4 crits)
41 melee swings
20 CS
73 seal hits (48.3 reg/24.7 crits)
73 total hits proc'ing JoL
judgement recoil = 18,256 damage done to self
seal recoil = 14,584
total recoil =
32,840 DS heals = 5316 (total/3)
JoL heals = 47,669
total self-healing = 52,985
strain on healer (self-healing-recoil) = (-20,145)
so, based on my numbers (which may not be 100% correct, but are pretty close) we cause 167.875 hps more than we cause dps to ourself... so strain on healers... kinda non-existent when you ONLY count the JoL heals on yourself... add in JoL on everyone in your 10 or 25 man raid... the amount of strain you TAKE OFF OF YOUR HEALERS is incredible...
final conclusion, please stop whining. if you can show me where my math is wrong, please do. if you CAN'T then stop complaining about how much of a strain we are going to be on the healers in ulduar. right now with the current judgement/seal percentages yes, we cause some small strain on our healers because our judgements hit so stinking hard. however, that's about to change and yes, i realize my numbers are largely theory, but so is this idea that we'll be strain on the healers in 3.1 without any reason.
all the recoil will mean is our DS and JoL will actually have something to heal up on us and our DS heal will always target us for one of the 3 targets... bad? not really. thats still 2 other targets that DS can heal and um, 8-20 other players that our JoW can proc for causeing 8-20 TIMES the healing done... if anything the strain we take from our healers needs to be balanced down a little. it is kinda crazy that a ret pally in a 25 man raid can never cast a heal but still be ahead of some healers who are doing their job well...
once again, i'm sorry this is long, but you have kinda been asking for some discussion on your OP Goggy, so here it is... Oh, and yes, I did say you're whining... um, feel free to read why I think you are and then proceed to rate me down... ;)