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Blue post - BoW & Mana SpringFollow

#1 Mar 11 2009 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
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I posted this in the paladin forums, but I believe it affects shamans too.

From:

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=8246458840&sid=1

Quote:
We are making a change to these spells so that their benefits are exclusive in patch 3.1.0. The buffs will be equivalent, but will no longer stack. Mana Spring will affect the entire raid instead of just the shaman’s party. We felt that both paladins and shamans brought too many unique buffs to a group. Additionally, we have been trying to tone down mana regeneration in large groups, and were concerned raids would feel the need to stack paladins or especially shaman to have enough Mana Spring totems. We have also been trying to get more benefits out of the party and into the raid, and Mana Spring previously was still a party only buff. With this change, if there is only one paladin, he or she can bring Blessing of Kings while the shaman offers Mana Spring. If there are two paladins and the second offers Blessing of Wisdom, then the shaman can offer healing or cleansing with their water totem instead.
#2 Mar 11 2009 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
Edit: I changed my post to be less rant from when I first found to my post on the o-board with a little less *********


Blizz,

This is just straight up a horrible nerf and I really don't see a point in it.

Pallys actually gain mana from healing. Add that to the BoW, replenishment, and totems and you had a healer that couldn't ever run out of mana. We knew this, and you knew this, and you stated you wanted to fix it.

So now you fix it by nerfing the only healer that you said COULD run out of mana. You have constantly denied shamans the right buffs in all aspects of the game due to them "infringing on other classes iconic abilities", then you give everyone buffs/spells/abilities that override our "iconic ability".

Bring the player, not the class. This makes absolutely no since. This game is about it's classes. You created a game with 7 unique classes then added 3 more throughout the years. Why there is now this new push to combine them all is beyond me. If that's truly what your going for, then just make a single class with tanking, healing, DPS specs and call it good. You have already turned it to where each class has it's own "iconic ability" and that's it, and now your taking ours away from us.

Listen carefully, you cannot balance this game out. I'm not saying you don't have the ability to, I'm saying it cannot be done. You have 10 classes, each with 3 specs, playing in 2 different aspects of the game. There is no possible way to equalize them. You spent the entire last part of BC butchering PvE so you could attempt to balance out PvP. With this new "bring the player" kick your butchering them both at the same time.

This is my guilds 25 man healer set up.

1 Resto Shaman
1 Resto Druid
2 Holy Priests
2-3 Holy Pallys depending on progression raid or farm raid.

It's not that we don't have more healers. We run 2 full 25 man groups weekly, and then some. But this is the setup that works the best. Add in a DPS shaman and we're taken care of.

With Ulduar, the nerf to BL, and now the nerf to mana spring, there is no reason to bring a resto sham in the raid. We do not bring any extra buffs, and there is no job that we can do better then another class, actually we will preform worse. Bring a elemental shaman with BL and ToW and you have one shaman bringing the buffs of a entire classes three specs.

This doesn't mention what enh and ele shamans can bring. If I had a raid with one shaman of each spec in it, I would drop the resto shaman and replace him with a holy pally, then drop the enh shaman and replace him with a frost mage. That would give me better healing and up my raids mana regen. If you had a problem with mana in a raid setting then why did you make frost mages a new mana battery?

Please either rethink what your doing to the game, rethink the shaman class, or just let me know if your plan really is to phase us out so I can focus more on my mage.

Thank You,
Hoping things change

Edited, Mar 11th 2009 4:40pm by DarkHybridX
#3 Mar 11 2009 at 7:31 PM Rating: Good
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3,737 posts
So I'm a resto shaman...

Can someone explain to me why I would ever drop another mana spring totem after this?

The only time would be a raid that contained zero paladins, because last time I checked, blessing of wisdom:
-- Lasts longer than 5 minutes
-- Only has to be cast 1 time unless I die
-- Isn't a stationary object that's subject to damage
-- Doesn't require me to be within 30 yards of anything

Hmm.... yeah... clearly these abilities are completely equal in every way and are therefore interchangable.... OR ARE THEY

Yeah, I realize I'm whining here, but honestly, this is almost 100 mp5 I now have to make up when I'm already stacking mp5 out of my ears just to avoid going OOM on every boss fight (as it is I still do on long protracted fights like KT or Patchwerk if the dps in our raid is just a little low)
#4 Mar 11 2009 at 8:51 PM Rating: Decent
The way I see it is this was not aimed towards shamans. Pallys were the one with endless mana and this was to help fix this, hell with the shamans. Not to mention the now 5 wasted points in the resto tree we will have now.
#5 Mar 12 2009 at 3:44 AM Rating: Decent
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1,121 posts
I really don't like where Blizzard is going with PvE, the idea is too many buffs pre WotLK where similar and they want similar ones to not be able to stack, but now shaman totems and buffs are becoming less necessary it seems with every change...

I don't know how shaman DPS is at this point in raids but if the class is still a little bit behind in dps then other classes then it will get to the point where there will be basicaly no reason to bring more then maybe one shaman per raid and just for blood lust.

Really this change as a whole is bad, if classes aren't able to bring there buffs to a raid env because another member already brings it to the table then a raid leader will probably just bring a stronger class.

Then again I have heard that raid content is not too difficult to pug and end game is very casual so maybe it all does not matter...

anyhow at this point I think blizzard needs to give shaman some new exclusive buff for shaman totems and I am mainly looking at water and maybe ever earth totem...
#6 Mar 12 2009 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
48 posts
I pretty much agree with DarkHybridX. Although I understand Blizzard's point, I do not like the homogenization of the classes idea. Part of the fun for me is watching the different synergies of the different classes. Furthermore, I think the ramifications of the stacking of shaman and paladin buffs should have been better considered more before they decided to avail each side with both classes.
#7 Mar 16 2009 at 2:09 AM Rating: Decent
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514 posts
IMO, Blizzard plain simply underestimated their players' min-maxing skill. And in their attempt to outsmart us, they screwed some of us over.

I wonder if ANY of the Devs play a shaman. It could explain why we were so often forgotten or neglected in their attempts at 'balancing'.

As it is right now, .... I had been invited to raids simply to be a 'heroism bot'. They only needed ONE. With the Heroism/BL nerf, there really isn't any reason to bring more than one anymore.
#8 Mar 16 2009 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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1,162 posts
Quote:
Not to mention the now 5 wasted points in the resto tree we will have now



It's only 3 wasted points and Healing Stream is getting a buff


Quote:
Restorative Totems: Reduced to 3 points, down from 5. Increases the effect of your Mana Spring Totem by 7/12/20%, and increases the amount healed by your Healing Stream Totem by 15/30/45%.


Right now it's 5/10/15/20/25%


Not that I agree with the changes to Mana Spring but they are trying to compensate a little. Now if they would make Healing Stream and Cleansing totem raid wide....

#9 Mar 16 2009 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
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2,396 posts
Callinon wrote:
So I'm a resto shaman...

Can someone explain to me why I would ever drop another mana spring totem after this?

The only time would be a raid that contained zero paladins, because last time I checked, blessing of wisdom:
-- Lasts longer than 5 minutes
-- Only has to be cast 1 time unless I die
-- Isn't a stationary object that's subject to damage
-- Doesn't require me to be within 30 yards of anything

Hmm.... yeah... clearly these abilities are completely equal in every way and are therefore interchangable.... OR ARE THEY

Yeah, I realize I'm whining here, but honestly, this is almost 100 mp5 I now have to make up when I'm already stacking mp5 out of my ears just to avoid going OOM on every boss fight (as it is I still do on long protracted fights like KT or Patchwerk if the dps in our raid is just a little low)

There's nothing to explain and it's not whining if you're right, which you are. After this change, the only reason any Shaman will ever lay Mana Spring is if there is not a single Paladin in the party/raid.

I really hate to beat a dead horse here, but once again it looks like the Shaman playerbase is being brushed aside. Blizzard has said verbatum that Resto Shaman are on the bottom of the totem pole when it comes to longevity, and now we're getting the shaft on the side in their effort to reign in Paladins in addition to giving up one of our most sought-after buffs to them. It just doesn't make any sense.

While I personally don't have mana issues, I have been, historically, one of the most efficient healer players I've seen in the game (typically near or at the top of healing done while simultaneously near or at the bottom of overhealing) and I go out of my way to stack MP5 where others might pursue haste, crit, or SP. I just hope it'll be enough after 3.1 hits.

Edited, Mar 18th 2009 9:47pm by Gaudion
#10 Mar 17 2009 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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2,101 posts
Gaudion wrote:

There's nothing to explain and it's not whining if you're right, which you are. After this change, the only reason any Shaman will ever lay Mana Spring is if there is not a single Paladin in the party/raid.


That would be 2 paladins.

Kings is no longer a talent spell, all specs will have kings, so it would be more beneficial to get kings from the paladin and have you lay down a mana spring than it would be for him to give out wisdom and you lay down healing totem.
#11 Mar 17 2009 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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2,396 posts
SynnTastic wrote:
Gaudion wrote:

There's nothing to explain and it's not whining if you're right, which you are. After this change, the only reason any Shaman will ever lay Mana Spring is if there is not a single Paladin in the party/raid.


That would be 2 paladins.

Kings is no longer a talent spell, all specs will have kings, so it would be more beneficial to get kings from the paladin and have you lay down a mana spring than it would be for him to give out wisdom and you lay down healing totem.

The convenience of BoW is going out outweigh the benefits of having both Kings and Mana Spring most of the time. A lot of Shaman don't bother to totem up on trash pulls in parties or raids anyways since, with a good enough group, things just die too fast. Even if they do, the totem can be A.) destroyed B.) only lasts five minutes if it isn't, and C.) carries range restrictions, which is especially detrimental on boss fights in raids where movement is frequently mandatory, often over a wide range. BoW carries none of these weaknesses.

Given the choice between having Kings all of the time and Mana Spring some of the time or just BoW all of the time, I would go with BoW in most situations.
#12 Mar 17 2009 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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1,162 posts
Quote:
Given the choice between having Kings all of the time and Mana Spring some of the time or just BoW all of the time, I would go with BoW in most situations


For most fight in Naxx ,with 1 Paladin, Kings and Mana Spring will not even be an option. BoW will be the only way to go on fight like Thadius, Gothik, Grob...
#13 Mar 17 2009 at 7:37 PM Rating: Decent
I understand the need for the reduction of MP5 but to do this at the expense of Shaman versatility is poor judgment. Mana Spring should give more mana then wisdom because 1) its a immovable buff 2) has a small range 3)though shaman have other totems most are impractical or useless in most scenarios. What im surprised about is strength of earth totem and DK's horn of winter because these is the exact same thing where both give strength and agility but DKs lasts for 3 mins while we all know shamans dont. Our strength of earth increases more agli and stren when speced for it which would be the same thing i would apply to mana spring. While not that big of a deal it makes our totems more effective then other abilities.
#14 Mar 18 2009 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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794 posts
Honestly, its the totem system that needs to be redesigned. The buffs were never the issue, its the fact that totems are totems that makes it difficult. Sure earth-bind and grounding are pretty powerful (even though they use the same totem to cast), I would prefer that those 2 totems are remechanized and the totem shaker idea I had before gets implemented.
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