the top 2 dps on that chart are mages out dps'n the boomkin on patchwerk. All you've done is shown that you have 4 mages in your guild 2 are good and 2 are bad.
The only fight which the boomkin actually barely out dps' 1 of the good mages from patchwerk is sarth+3d which there is so much movement it's not a even good parse to compare.
Edited, Feb 2nd 2009 2:03am by lysrgk
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Why a Moonkin over a mage ?Follow
lysrgk I in no way am saying to not post good or useful information or that bad info should get rate ups.
I am simply saying you and several others are being overtly rude and hostile. There is no need for that. It has devolved from what could have been a discussion about various buffs and DPS benefits between moonkin and mages into a flame party.
Asking for WWS can be done in a less hostile tone and accusing people of being bad are also unneeded.
The druid forums are usually free from sarcasm and everyone typically tries to give good advice and if they are wrong are grateful for the advice.
Just saying.
Edited, Feb 2nd 2009 2:23am by Horsemouth
I am simply saying you and several others are being overtly rude and hostile. There is no need for that. It has devolved from what could have been a discussion about various buffs and DPS benefits between moonkin and mages into a flame party.
Asking for WWS can be done in a less hostile tone and accusing people of being bad are also unneeded.
The druid forums are usually free from sarcasm and everyone typically tries to give good advice and if they are wrong are grateful for the advice.
Just saying.
Edited, Feb 2nd 2009 2:23am by Horsemouth
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idiggory wrote:
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yeah, i dont want to put down a quor-stomp here, so lets keep it civil.
also, moonkin > mages simply on the basis of cuddliness. mages arent cuddly, and when they try to warm you up you generally need to go to a burn unit after.
also, moonkin > mages simply on the basis of cuddliness. mages arent cuddly, and when they try to warm you up you generally need to go to a burn unit after.
Hello again all :)
It was not my intention to start a big discussion, it was simply a question of wich cons/pros a moonkin has over a mage.
But it has turned into a my dad is stronger than your dad.
I have gotten my answers, so maybe we should just end it here :)
It was not my intention to start a big discussion, it was simply a question of wich cons/pros a moonkin has over a mage.
But it has turned into a my dad is stronger than your dad.
I have gotten my answers, so maybe we should just end it here :)
Of course both classes/specs are as good as the next one. In the end it depends on your expected play style. If you want raw damage and nothing but raw damage, and an almost guaranteed spot at the top of the dps meters (when you're a good player), then you have to choose mage. If you want versatility, even within the confines of the moonkin spec, then you choose Druid moonkin. When you're good at what you do as a moonkin, you can still get close or at the top of the dps meters. In my experience of playing both a mage and a moonkin, of which the latter is my main, you just have to try a bit harder as a moonkin if you want to top the dps meters.
The main things I really dig when it comes to moonkin versatility are Remove Curse and Abolish Poison, especially since the last one is now also castable without shifting form. That, combined with the ability to heal, makes for a great raid saver.
The main things I really dig when it comes to moonkin versatility are Remove Curse and Abolish Poison, especially since the last one is now also castable without shifting form. That, combined with the ability to heal, makes for a great raid saver.
Quote:
the top 2 dps on that chart are mages out dps'n the boomkin on patchwerk. All you've done is shown that you have 4 mages in your guild 2 are good and 2 are bad.
The only fight which the boomkin actually barely out dps' 1 of the good mages from patchwerk is sarth+3d which there is so much movement it's not a even good parse to compare.
The only fight which the boomkin actually barely out dps' 1 of the good mages from patchwerk is sarth+3d which there is so much movement it's not a even good parse to compare.
I'm not sure about current DPS, in comparison, but eventually there will be no reason to prefer one over the other where that is concerned. Blizzard is making it a point to homogenize all the classes, as far as general usefulness.
Mages have better burst damage than we do. So, what we should be seeing is buffs to our DOT, or buffs to things like Starfall. Personally, I think we could use more options for critical damage, since the base damage to Wrath and Starfall are good as they are. If we had the critical damage that a mage does, then we'd be up there with them, and possibly do better.
The main reason to play a boomkin is that you can respec into a healing, melee dps, or tank class.
Of course boomkin can do great dps, and they add much to raid composition with their various attributes, probably more than mages do, especially if you consider that a mage table really is just a convenience.
That being said, mages are great too. When I play my mage I love having a boomkin by my side. The problem with mage is also one of the greatest things about it, that being that you are purely a dps. No one will ever hassle you to tank or heal and when you get invited to a group you know what your role is. Blow stuff up. And mages are the best caster dps in the game right now.
I enjoy pvp on mage a lot more right now because of the insane burst damage and trickiness of Arcane spec. In the end though, a druid is nice to have for versatility and performs among the best of them in any talent tree.
Of course boomkin can do great dps, and they add much to raid composition with their various attributes, probably more than mages do, especially if you consider that a mage table really is just a convenience.
That being said, mages are great too. When I play my mage I love having a boomkin by my side. The problem with mage is also one of the greatest things about it, that being that you are purely a dps. No one will ever hassle you to tank or heal and when you get invited to a group you know what your role is. Blow stuff up. And mages are the best caster dps in the game right now.
I enjoy pvp on mage a lot more right now because of the insane burst damage and trickiness of Arcane spec. In the end though, a druid is nice to have for versatility and performs among the best of them in any talent tree.
It all really depends. What kind of raid? Group mobs - boomkin > mage. Singular mob - mage burst > boomkin. Long fight? Boomkin because of variety of spells and dots. Starfire+wrath+typhoon+moonfire+treants+starfall+insect swarm > pyroblast/frost bolt x1000.
PvP - mages for sure. Sure boomkins can heal themselves, but besides a rogue, mages are CC supreme.
But obviously, despite it all, if you wanna be the best - you'll respecc feral and dominate the world. :P
PvP - mages for sure. Sure boomkins can heal themselves, but besides a rogue, mages are CC supreme.
But obviously, despite it all, if you wanna be the best - you'll respecc feral and dominate the world. :P
1) Moonkin aura gives everyone in party/raid +5% spell crit
2) As a tank, I've never had a moonkin steal agro, mages do it all the time
3) They're never OOM
4) Battle rez in case of emergency
5) Inervate for healers in case of emergency
6) They can heal or tank in case of emergency (not well, but good enough to make the difference if the boss is nearly dead)
7) They're better dancers then mages
2) As a tank, I've never had a moonkin steal agro, mages do it all the time
3) They're never OOM
4) Battle rez in case of emergency
5) Inervate for healers in case of emergency
6) They can heal or tank in case of emergency (not well, but good enough to make the difference if the boss is nearly dead)
7) They're better dancers then mages
Raisse wrote:
ArexLovesPie wrote:
A consistent 5% crit vs something that needs to be applied. Much like feral's LotP vs Warriors 5% crit, I can't remember the name of the skill but I would much rather take a buff that is always up rather than something that is based off a chance.
You obviously don't understand Improved Scorch. With the glyph 2 casts of Scorch will give you the full 5 stacks of the debuff yielding 10% to all offensive spells on the boss. If your mage allows this to wear off at any time during the encounter except times you're not attacking the boss (add phase or something to that effect) he's a bad mage. So no, it's not based on chance. Oh, and the best thing? You can have both.
Moonkin have the Talent 'Moon and Earth' that increases magical damage taken by 13% and is applied on every cast of Wrath or Starfall. No need to cast multiple times to get it up, debuffs more and is cast by twice as many spells.
For some classes, however, crit might be more beneficial. Even though +10% crit and +10% damage would be equal, many classes have benefits from crits/crit procs, while increased damage rarely procs anything as far as I know. So basically that extra 3% we have somewhat compensates, but having both would really be ideal.
Also, just one thing Rusttle forgot:
With 3/3 Imp Moonkin it's also a 3% more haste to everyone. Not negligible.
All in all, I think Doomkins have way more utility, but Mages should indeed reach a higher DPS. Perhaps some don't since, let's be frank, some players are better than others. I would personally take a Doomkin's utility over another Mage in a raid.
Also, just one thing Rusttle forgot:
Quote:
1) Moonkin aura gives everyone in party/raid +5% spell crit
With 3/3 Imp Moonkin it's also a 3% more haste to everyone. Not negligible.
All in all, I think Doomkins have way more utility, but Mages should indeed reach a higher DPS. Perhaps some don't since, let's be frank, some players are better than others. I would personally take a Doomkin's utility over another Mage in a raid.
Like the last poster said, if you want utility go boomkin, if you want options go druid (because you can tank/heal/caster dps/ melee dps, its almost stupid imo). I however play a mage because that's what I enjoy. I also enjoy tearing apart the damage meters :) And the only druid who has ever come close to my dmg has been a feral druid cause we're all pretty sure he cheats somehow lol.
To set everyone straight on the buffs since reading through this its apparent none of you guys know much about mages (not to be mean, just the truth)
Imp Scorch: Gives 10% crit with a full stack. Glyphed that requires 2 scorches to have full stacks. Every single Fire/ Frotfire mage will have this, and scorch is part of their rotation so it will always be up, theres no "chance" about it.
Also on rotations, "pyroblast/frostbolt x1000" is probably the worst rotation i have ever heard of in my entire life (just sayin) No self respecting mage will show up to a raid as frost, (if he does, maybe thats why you boomkins are out dpsing him)
Fire is Scorchx2, Living Bomb, Fireball(or FFB depending on spec)x7 or so, repeat. All the while watching for hot streak procs to throw an instant pyroblast. Arcane is Abarr, ABx3, using MB if it procs but only with a ABx3 up, if no MB procs then use ABarr, repeat. They can get pretty tricky watching for the procs.
PvP, I've never lost to a boomkin, roots are annoying but honestly doesnt matter since your a caster and so am i so i dont need distance. Yeah you can heal, but i'll just spell steal your hots, then im getting healed and you just wasted mana.
In the end just play what you enjoy. Make one of each and level till like 20 or so and see how you feel. But at 80, 1-2 shotting mobs as a mage while doing dailies is pretty nice.
TLDR: Play what you like, but mages are better in PvP, raids, and farming :) Peace and Love from the Mage community
To set everyone straight on the buffs since reading through this its apparent none of you guys know much about mages (not to be mean, just the truth)
Imp Scorch: Gives 10% crit with a full stack. Glyphed that requires 2 scorches to have full stacks. Every single Fire/ Frotfire mage will have this, and scorch is part of their rotation so it will always be up, theres no "chance" about it.
Also on rotations, "pyroblast/frostbolt x1000" is probably the worst rotation i have ever heard of in my entire life (just sayin) No self respecting mage will show up to a raid as frost, (if he does, maybe thats why you boomkins are out dpsing him)
Fire is Scorchx2, Living Bomb, Fireball(or FFB depending on spec)x7 or so, repeat. All the while watching for hot streak procs to throw an instant pyroblast. Arcane is Abarr, ABx3, using MB if it procs but only with a ABx3 up, if no MB procs then use ABarr, repeat. They can get pretty tricky watching for the procs.
PvP, I've never lost to a boomkin, roots are annoying but honestly doesnt matter since your a caster and so am i so i dont need distance. Yeah you can heal, but i'll just spell steal your hots, then im getting healed and you just wasted mana.
In the end just play what you enjoy. Make one of each and level till like 20 or so and see how you feel. But at 80, 1-2 shotting mobs as a mage while doing dailies is pretty nice.
TLDR: Play what you like, but mages are better in PvP, raids, and farming :) Peace and Love from the Mage community
Quote:
Peace and Love from the Mage community
Right... and the fact that you're basically saying "sure Moonkin is cute, but Mages own you" has nothing to do with that.
Quote:
Play what you like, but mages are better in PvP, raids, and farming
Simply, no.
The more elaborate answer is that you are obviously a DPS monkey, incapable of conceiving that anything beyond DPS is useful and can be far more valuable than pure DPS. On a straight 1 vs 1 a Mage may outdamage a Moonkin, steal his HoT's, kill him and whatnot, but we all know how rare 1 vs 1's are. I don't feel the need to break down your post, as your PvP analysis is but one of many possible situations and while I don't really care if you've ever been beaten by a Moonkin, it is quite possible and possibly happens more than you'd imagine in your little Mage world.
TL;DR: Don't be so cocky and post opinions as facts.
41 posts
As a feral druid in pvp, I usually find that Mages are easier to knock of then Moonkin. mages are usually KO by time he's done with stun lock. Moonkin, fair slightly better surviving my initial attack. I'm not big into raids yet, and I don't know about mages, does scorch stack with the 5% moonkin buff?
anyway, Being a druid I'm pretty biased, but I would pick Moonkin if I were you, because it seems like it's more fun in the long run. Unless you are gun hoe only in love with spellcasting dps, your going to get bored, then do you want to level a brand new character to 80, or do you want to respec into something else. I prefer the later levels to lower ones, so I don't really care idea of spending any more hours in a barrens esque starting area, So I would rather just be able to respec from spellcaster to healer or melee, if I get bored.
anyway, Being a druid I'm pretty biased, but I would pick Moonkin if I were you, because it seems like it's more fun in the long run. Unless you are gun hoe only in love with spellcasting dps, your going to get bored, then do you want to level a brand new character to 80, or do you want to respec into something else. I prefer the later levels to lower ones, so I don't really care idea of spending any more hours in a barrens esque starting area, So I would rather just be able to respec from spellcaster to healer or melee, if I get bored.
Why are people still beating this dead horse...
What the heck... I am going to add my two cents as well, mind you that is in US currency as even Canada is outpacing us now.
As someone who just returned to WoW after almost 2 years away, and now with the Horde since I talked several RL friends into rerolling and getting away from the Alliance kids (could not resist...) I just recently rolled several new classes and to date I have a Druid at 27, a warlock at 26, and a mage at 17. In my prior career I was a priest, paladin, hunter, and rogue so wanted something a bit different to go with what I already new... all of the above were either 70 or 68, by the time I quit.
So... more to the point, I wanted something that would top the dps meters and be fun to play and going off what I knew 2 years ago is how I determined that I wanted to try one of the above 3. I have stopped playing the warlock for now entirely. Between the mage and the druid at low levels, the druid is by far the better choice IMO. Easy to get groups as healer or tank or off dps for that matter... survivability is incredible, and downtime is almost non existent.
While I realize that a mage can do sheer dps and once evocation is available, their downtime is reduced significantly, from a standpoint of Moonkin or mage... the druid is going to win out 9 out of 10 times.
Before I get attacked in this thread as already forewarned, I also realize that this discussion is for at least lvl 40 and above. Going back on my previous history, and there are significant changes obviously, I think it comes down to what you need in your 10 man or 25 man raids, and quite honestly, the same for 5 mans. A balance raid or PUG is required to be successful. In terms of one is better than the other, both have utility in all situations, but a Druid has more utility. In regards to PVP, it is way more about gear and personal ability. My shadow priest used to own just about every class in world PvP, but in the arena... 2v2... yea, I died... again, though, look at the situations. As already mentioned how often is someone in an "ideal" situation for the whole time. In world PvP, I was normally the one making the attack first, as that is what makes / allows for my survival. As a cloth wearer squishy, my first attack for 2k was the difference 90% of the time.
Regardless, why... the only answer is personal and guild preference. Everyone has an idea as to what is the best, but often you may be shaving 20 minutes or less of a successful run, and honestly, the run is successful either way. Yes, I realize the elitists out there want to have the fastest runs, but that is also the joy of WoW, some guilds play to have fun and win, some just want to win, and some just want to goof off, find one that works for you. Enjoy the game.
As someone who just returned to WoW after almost 2 years away, and now with the Horde since I talked several RL friends into rerolling and getting away from the Alliance kids (could not resist...) I just recently rolled several new classes and to date I have a Druid at 27, a warlock at 26, and a mage at 17. In my prior career I was a priest, paladin, hunter, and rogue so wanted something a bit different to go with what I already new... all of the above were either 70 or 68, by the time I quit.
So... more to the point, I wanted something that would top the dps meters and be fun to play and going off what I knew 2 years ago is how I determined that I wanted to try one of the above 3. I have stopped playing the warlock for now entirely. Between the mage and the druid at low levels, the druid is by far the better choice IMO. Easy to get groups as healer or tank or off dps for that matter... survivability is incredible, and downtime is almost non existent.
While I realize that a mage can do sheer dps and once evocation is available, their downtime is reduced significantly, from a standpoint of Moonkin or mage... the druid is going to win out 9 out of 10 times.
Before I get attacked in this thread as already forewarned, I also realize that this discussion is for at least lvl 40 and above. Going back on my previous history, and there are significant changes obviously, I think it comes down to what you need in your 10 man or 25 man raids, and quite honestly, the same for 5 mans. A balance raid or PUG is required to be successful. In terms of one is better than the other, both have utility in all situations, but a Druid has more utility. In regards to PVP, it is way more about gear and personal ability. My shadow priest used to own just about every class in world PvP, but in the arena... 2v2... yea, I died... again, though, look at the situations. As already mentioned how often is someone in an "ideal" situation for the whole time. In world PvP, I was normally the one making the attack first, as that is what makes / allows for my survival. As a cloth wearer squishy, my first attack for 2k was the difference 90% of the time.
Regardless, why... the only answer is personal and guild preference. Everyone has an idea as to what is the best, but often you may be shaving 20 minutes or less of a successful run, and honestly, the run is successful either way. Yes, I realize the elitists out there want to have the fastest runs, but that is also the joy of WoW, some guilds play to have fun and win, some just want to win, and some just want to goof off, find one that works for you. Enjoy the game.
Maybe I miss the whole point of question but I was thinking Mugge was asking from a dps stand point why go with boomkin over a mage. I would answer your question with one word "survivablity". Mage with equal gear should be able to out damage moonkin per hit. but in course of battle no compares boomkins survivablity wins the day. I agree with all things about raids that was posted.
If we are talking equal skill & equal gear, I think there is little doubt that a mage has a small edge on a boomkin in out and out personal DPS, but the 3% haste from Imp.BattleTurkey form should more than make up for any lack in personal dps. So if you don't have a boomkin in the raid (really talking about 25mans here) then a boomkin will be a bigger overall DPS increase for the raid as a whole than a mage. Once you have one Boom though, then you have the Boom buffs and you will be better off getting more mages after that for their increased personal DPS.
Of course, you should always take the better PLAYER no matter what class/spec they are playing!
Of course, you should always take the better PLAYER no matter what class/spec they are playing!
Friar RareBeast wrote:
If we are talking equal skill & equal gear, I think there is little doubt that a mage has a small edge on a boomkin in out and out personal DPS, but the 3% haste from Imp.BattleTurkey form should more than make up for any lack in personal dps. So if you don't have a boomkin in the raid (really talking about 25mans here) then a boomkin will be a bigger overall DPS increase for the raid as a whole than a mage. Once you have one Boom though, then you have the Boom buffs and you will be better off getting more mages after that for their increased personal DPS.
Of course, you should always take the better PLAYER no matter what class/spec they are playing!
Of course, you should always take the better PLAYER no matter what class/spec they are playing!
/thread
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