Story time.
About a 3 months before the expansion I get this great idea to level a paladin. So I sign my girlfriend up for the triple exp bonus, hammer through old world content and ding 70 1 week before the expansion. Expansion drops, takes about 3 weeks to hit 80 as ret. After I got to 80 my plan was always to go holy. So I join a weekend raiding guild, and have a decent healing set as well as a good ret set from leveling.
Our first 10 man into Naxx we had 4 healers signed up. I told the guild/raid leader that I had a hit capped ret set if he wanted me to respec. He asked me to respec and to stay ret within the guild due to us having lots of healers. I was ok with this, cause lets face it blowing crap up is fun. So we are chugging along in content, downing bosses. We have no holy palis in the guild, so all healing plate drops are headed my way for offspec.
About this time we are having a tank shortage, so I gather together a good off tank set (540 defense, 24000 HP, not enough to main tank). I have spent all my heroic badges on Ret gear, which I can no longer upgrade from badge gear. My AP is 3200 unbuffed, hit capped, 26% crit. I pull 2.5k DPS in heroics, over 3.2k in 25 man raids. Blah blah blah, this is not about my epeen. My Holy set is 1.8k SP, 34% holy crit. I get comments all the time about how good my offset is.
Ok now that the back story is in place, we have DPS that are not working at gearing up. They have been 80 for over a month, are not hit capped, do under 1500 DPS, and want a raid spot. Every week I show up in my ret gear and I get asked to respec. We do not progress on content due to low DPS and fails at dropping poison rings. Last week I told the guild that I felt like vendoring my healing set.
So, where I am at now is if I see undergeared DPS in the raid, I will NOT respec to heal the raid. My advice to all you good ret pali's out there is to build an offset (You never know when you might wanna switch to healing or tanking full time) but do not let your guild know how good an offset you have.
Cheers....
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- Reasons NOT to build an offset. (rant)
Reasons NOT to build an offset. (rant)Follow
Your guild leader needs to put his foot down and tell the lazy people to do some regular level 80 dungeons and heroics to get some friggin gear!
Everyone hears how easy Naxx is now and wants to go there the minute they ding 80, or they want to go there after a month of being 80 but doing nothing but farming and doing dailies.
After a month at 80, you should have done enough level 80 dungeons and heroics to be revered with pretty much every Northrend faction and exalted with at least some of them, and you should have plenty of dungeon/heroic drops and blue/purple Rep gear that your DPS will be just fine for Naxx.
If the guild leader won't call people out for being lazy and gimping the guild's progression, perhaps you should. If you do massive DPS in your Ret set and being Ret is fun for you, you shouldn't be asked to respec to tank or heal so that sub-par DPS can get Naxx purples handed to them (If they can get through anything without multiple wipes and extreme frustration).
Next time this happens just say, "Hey, I am not trying to be an a**-hole, but I had to work very hard for my gear, and I earned it. Ret DPS is what I excel at, and it is what I want to do when I raid. If you guys want me to respec for a few heroics or something because none of the other healers are on at the time, I will do that, but when I raid, I want to be Ret because it is my best set of gear and the spec that I perform best at."
If your guildies don't like it, that really isn't your problem. It should be the job of the guild leader and the raid leaders to put together a raid that isn't full of fail.
Everyone hears how easy Naxx is now and wants to go there the minute they ding 80, or they want to go there after a month of being 80 but doing nothing but farming and doing dailies.
After a month at 80, you should have done enough level 80 dungeons and heroics to be revered with pretty much every Northrend faction and exalted with at least some of them, and you should have plenty of dungeon/heroic drops and blue/purple Rep gear that your DPS will be just fine for Naxx.
If the guild leader won't call people out for being lazy and gimping the guild's progression, perhaps you should. If you do massive DPS in your Ret set and being Ret is fun for you, you shouldn't be asked to respec to tank or heal so that sub-par DPS can get Naxx purples handed to them (If they can get through anything without multiple wipes and extreme frustration).
Next time this happens just say, "Hey, I am not trying to be an a**-hole, but I had to work very hard for my gear, and I earned it. Ret DPS is what I excel at, and it is what I want to do when I raid. If you guys want me to respec for a few heroics or something because none of the other healers are on at the time, I will do that, but when I raid, I want to be Ret because it is my best set of gear and the spec that I perform best at."
If your guildies don't like it, that really isn't your problem. It should be the job of the guild leader and the raid leaders to put together a raid that isn't full of fail.
I wholeheartedly agree with what jer said.
There is nothing worse than seeing people in my guild wearing greens to 25 man Naxx. I worked my *** off to get geared for Naxx and I hate seeing fresh 80's get Valorous over me.
There is nothing worse than seeing people in my guild wearing greens to 25 man Naxx. I worked my *** off to get geared for Naxx and I hate seeing fresh 80's get Valorous over me.
Yeah I totally agree. Maybe our goals in the game are different but I always have been gear up for what you want to do. Don't let someone else carry you. My gear is by no means the best, shoot I'm just going into naxx tomorrow. But it took me 4 days since I turned level 80 to go from 530def and just arund 20khp to 540def 27500hp. Am i ready to MT naxx, no. But damnit If i can do that in 4 days how the heck have they not done it in 1 month. Shoot in a full month i'll probably be close to fully geared as long as my guild and keep progressing.
It definently falls back on the guild leader to step up and say, "if you want to join us on these naxx runs you better get geared". If they dont like it. Tough!
It definently falls back on the guild leader to step up and say, "if you want to join us on these naxx runs you better get geared". If they dont like it. Tough!
you will always have a solid core group of players in any given guild. those that understand the basic mechanics of every class, those that fully level their professions, those that make progress possible.
this is seen more dramatically in a semi-casual raiding group. you will have that OT that stacks nothing but Armor Value. you will have that healer that is a second too slow for everything. you will have a dps that has an ability in his spell book that he doesn't know about. this is the price you pay to have a "friendly" guild.
my guild is made up of extensions of RL friends and family and acquaintances. i have been with these people for +2yrs and will probably end my WoW career with them. as i said, we have a solid core. a group i can trust in any 5man heroic to steamroll and eat achievements. outside of that is a mix of inexperience, under-prepearedness, or disinterest.
it gets tough. you like the people and you want them to succeed. but you can only teach so much before you realize they just dont get it. you can tell the OT to stay away from the insect swarm in whisper, /RW, and on vent. but some people take 3 wipes to figure it out.
do what you want to do. let everyone catch up to your level.
this is seen more dramatically in a semi-casual raiding group. you will have that OT that stacks nothing but Armor Value. you will have that healer that is a second too slow for everything. you will have a dps that has an ability in his spell book that he doesn't know about. this is the price you pay to have a "friendly" guild.
my guild is made up of extensions of RL friends and family and acquaintances. i have been with these people for +2yrs and will probably end my WoW career with them. as i said, we have a solid core. a group i can trust in any 5man heroic to steamroll and eat achievements. outside of that is a mix of inexperience, under-prepearedness, or disinterest.
it gets tough. you like the people and you want them to succeed. but you can only teach so much before you realize they just dont get it. you can tell the OT to stay away from the insect swarm in whisper, /RW, and on vent. but some people take 3 wipes to figure it out.
do what you want to do. let everyone catch up to your level.
Right now I'm gearing up for Naxx myself as a holy paladin. Its really not THAT hard to get geared anymore. I'm surprised. After a few heroic runs. Plenty of 5-mans and a couple of group quests. My paladin in less than four days is over minimum to heal in Naxx 10.
I play a lot...but not excessively. I'm pretty lazy with the gear. Until I get annoyed with a piece and look up what I need. Since I've spent the last 3 levels preparing (And it hasn't taken THAT much work). I'm already set. Running entry level heroics. Collecting badges. Its fun.
With that said, there really isn't an excuse for not being geared anymore. Back in BC it'd take weeks of running the same instances to get what you need. I mean weeks and weeks and weeks of instance runs and rep grinds just to start playing with heroics.
The loot tables this time around along with group quests and rep rewards are easy enough that in a good week you can be up and going in heroics with ACCEPTABLE above min required gear. Its REALLY easy. And there is no excuse not to.
Listen up, most of the people complaining about the content being too easy were people in T6 gear and have been raiding for god only knows how long. Their gear was already at minimum or their skills and team work made up when their gear lagged behind. For the average player you're not going to find entry level heroics much easier than BC heroics first time in. The idea the game is stupidly easy is misleading. It is easier...and when you're geared and know what you're doing it CAN be a cake walk. But you can't go into 80 end-game content with level 70 gear. You're still going to be 10 levels ahead of the game
In the last 2 days I've gained about 200 spell power, 1.5k health, and 2.5k mana over my leveling gear (most of which was Merciless with some Wotkl accessories from instances and group quests). If you don't know about healing...those are BIG increases. Small numbers it may seem. But they make a HUGE difference...
Gear up... no excuse... and don't expect people who HAVE put the effort in to pick up your slack.
If you don't want to PLAY the game...don't.
Edited, Jan 22nd 2009 3:13am by ekaterinodar
I play a lot...but not excessively. I'm pretty lazy with the gear. Until I get annoyed with a piece and look up what I need. Since I've spent the last 3 levels preparing (And it hasn't taken THAT much work). I'm already set. Running entry level heroics. Collecting badges. Its fun.
With that said, there really isn't an excuse for not being geared anymore. Back in BC it'd take weeks of running the same instances to get what you need. I mean weeks and weeks and weeks of instance runs and rep grinds just to start playing with heroics.
The loot tables this time around along with group quests and rep rewards are easy enough that in a good week you can be up and going in heroics with ACCEPTABLE above min required gear. Its REALLY easy. And there is no excuse not to.
Listen up, most of the people complaining about the content being too easy were people in T6 gear and have been raiding for god only knows how long. Their gear was already at minimum or their skills and team work made up when their gear lagged behind. For the average player you're not going to find entry level heroics much easier than BC heroics first time in. The idea the game is stupidly easy is misleading. It is easier...and when you're geared and know what you're doing it CAN be a cake walk. But you can't go into 80 end-game content with level 70 gear. You're still going to be 10 levels ahead of the game
In the last 2 days I've gained about 200 spell power, 1.5k health, and 2.5k mana over my leveling gear (most of which was Merciless with some Wotkl accessories from instances and group quests). If you don't know about healing...those are BIG increases. Small numbers it may seem. But they make a HUGE difference...
Gear up... no excuse... and don't expect people who HAVE put the effort in to pick up your slack.
If you don't want to PLAY the game...don't.
Edited, Jan 22nd 2009 3:13am by ekaterinodar
Happens in my server. I'm not a raider but here so many bad things about certain raiding guilds who say they are the best. But all I here is the real raiders who have busted there hump getting there gear ready for better raids and others who havn't are handed spots on a silver platter. >< I feel so bad for them
Quote:
Ok now that the back story is in place, we have DPS that are not working at gearing up. They have been 80 for over a month, are not hit capped, do under 1500 DPS
While I understand that they're behind in DPS, I just want to point out that gearing to Hit Cap for white hits isn't the best option for some melee DPS class/specs (unless you're referring to Special Hit Cap, which is good for everyone I believe).
Yes, the guild leader definitely needs to put his foot down and say "Get some better gear if you want a raid slot".
Seriously.
But then, the said guild SHOULD also be helping those DPS get better gear between raids. Surely, Naxx isn't the ONLY thing you guys are doing? If you, as a guild, enter Naxx and can't clear it due to low DPS, not being hit-capped, whatever, then you guys are *surely* doing Heroics or Lv80 dungeons to beef up reputations, and gear to get up to where you can do raids?
If not, you may want to seek another guild.
Any good guild should be doing ANYTHING within their power to help their fellow guildies become better at their classes. This includes Normals, Heroics, AND Raids.
If you're in a guild that calls itself a "Raiding Guild" but yet can't raid yet, I hope you are doing Normals and Heroics to progress towards raiding, otherwise you're in the wrong guild.
With the stats you throw up there, I don't see why you couldn't find yourself a real guild if your current one doesn't shape up fast.
Seriously.
But then, the said guild SHOULD also be helping those DPS get better gear between raids. Surely, Naxx isn't the ONLY thing you guys are doing? If you, as a guild, enter Naxx and can't clear it due to low DPS, not being hit-capped, whatever, then you guys are *surely* doing Heroics or Lv80 dungeons to beef up reputations, and gear to get up to where you can do raids?
If not, you may want to seek another guild.
Any good guild should be doing ANYTHING within their power to help their fellow guildies become better at their classes. This includes Normals, Heroics, AND Raids.
If you're in a guild that calls itself a "Raiding Guild" but yet can't raid yet, I hope you are doing Normals and Heroics to progress towards raiding, otherwise you're in the wrong guild.
With the stats you throw up there, I don't see why you couldn't find yourself a real guild if your current one doesn't shape up fast.
Zariamnk wrote:
If you're in a guild that calls itself a "Raiding Guild" but yet can't raid yet, I hope you are doing Normals and Heroics to progress towards raiding, otherwise you're in the wrong guild.
QFT
Oh god... I just got my healing set together and had to respec for naxx. I thought it was pretty fun to have a chance of pace, but I was UNAWARE of the treacherous road I have started down!!
Whereas I feel your pain, OP, and I agree that you should get a dps slot and think you should most probably go into a more serious guild, there's a case for building offsets, and a big one.
We are a pretty serious guild. Naxx 10/25 completed, OS 10/25 (one dragon standing so far), EoE 10 man ... There are better guilds out there but we are rapidly running out of bosses in Wotlk.
Soooo, recently some new players applied and they got in. One of them fancies himself a tank, which is really a shame as we have already 7 active tanks in the guild. 3 pallies, two DKs, one druid and one warrior. We don't really have enough players right now to have two 25 mans teams going, so I had a little converstion with him. I told him that whereas he's free to specc whatever he wants, for raids he's more likely to get the call in healing or dps duties than he is in tanking duties. He didn't really like it, so I pointed out that hybrids have the PRIVILEGE of being able to fill different duties. If dps slots are full, another dps will not get in the raid. A hybrid has the enormous advantadge or respeccing and, presto, he can, provided he has good enough gear, get a raid spot as either a tank or a healer. That is just such an enormous advantadge that I really can't imagine why ANYONE would not build an offset ...
We are a pretty serious guild. Naxx 10/25 completed, OS 10/25 (one dragon standing so far), EoE 10 man ... There are better guilds out there but we are rapidly running out of bosses in Wotlk.
Soooo, recently some new players applied and they got in. One of them fancies himself a tank, which is really a shame as we have already 7 active tanks in the guild. 3 pallies, two DKs, one druid and one warrior. We don't really have enough players right now to have two 25 mans teams going, so I had a little converstion with him. I told him that whereas he's free to specc whatever he wants, for raids he's more likely to get the call in healing or dps duties than he is in tanking duties. He didn't really like it, so I pointed out that hybrids have the PRIVILEGE of being able to fill different duties. If dps slots are full, another dps will not get in the raid. A hybrid has the enormous advantadge or respeccing and, presto, he can, provided he has good enough gear, get a raid spot as either a tank or a healer. That is just such an enormous advantadge that I really can't imagine why ANYONE would not build an offset ...
I know its a dangerous ground to walk on, making an offspec set and all. But now that i'm done gearing up my Prot spec I really wanted to make sure I can fill another slot incase I'm not needed in our 10mans. I'm third tank down which means in 10m naxx you really only need 2 tanks and I might not get a spot. I do look at it as a privilage that I am able to repsec as another roll and still be able to gear up my guy. My only concern is I want to go as a Tank spec so if i'm asked to go as my holy spec will I still be allowed to roll on tank gear, thats really my only concern.
Just by running Heroics while tanking in less then a week I've been able to make a 6epic the rest blue heroic Holy set. I dont understand why people and their mainspecs are so undergeared. its not that hard!!
Just by running Heroics while tanking in less then a week I've been able to make a 6epic the rest blue heroic Holy set. I dont understand why people and their mainspecs are so undergeared. its not that hard!!
Quote:
My only concern is I want to go as a Tank spec so if i'm asked to go as my holy spec will I still be allowed to roll on tank gear, thats really my only concern.
Talk it over with your RL. Most will allow you IMO.
anyone else find it easier to acquire offset pieces than main set? i got almost a full epic healing set, yet still a few Ret blues.
Quote:
He didn't really like it, so I pointed out that hybrids have the PRIVILEGE of being able to fill different duties.
Well personally I am not yet 80 and have never raided, but this rang a few alarm bells for me...
A player will roll a mage because they want to nuke mobs and get huge crits. A player may roll a druid, just because they want to be a bear and tank. They may not enjoy / be interested in going resto.
Just because hybrids CAN respec, it doesn't mean they should NEED to respec. IMO, if you're a hybrid but you outgear/outplay another player of that 'role', you have earned a raid slot in the role of your choice.
In my opinion you should do what is needed by your guild. If you don't care enough to do that, you should find a guild that either a) allows you to do whatever and will never ask you to do something else or b) find a guild that you DO care enough to do what is needed. I don't want anyone to think I'm telling them they are wrong to not build off sets, this is just my opinion.
I am a tank. I excel at tanking, and my guild uses me as a tank. That said, I am building (and have always had) a healing kit and DPS kit. If we are ever short on healers, even though I hate to heal, I will respec for my guild and heal. I feel it is my duty to do what I can to help the guild progress, because I am a hybrid. Same with my Enhancement Shaman: if I am needed to heal, I will don my healing kit, respec, and go heal. I wouldn't do this for just any random group of people, but I care enough about my guild, and want them to succeed, that I will do whatever I can to help them out.
Again, this may not be the philosophy for everyone, but it's something to think about. Forcing someone to respec and regear is not the same and is very wrong imo, but making a choice to do so if needed, I believe, shows a higher character and dedication of a person.
I am a tank. I excel at tanking, and my guild uses me as a tank. That said, I am building (and have always had) a healing kit and DPS kit. If we are ever short on healers, even though I hate to heal, I will respec for my guild and heal. I feel it is my duty to do what I can to help the guild progress, because I am a hybrid. Same with my Enhancement Shaman: if I am needed to heal, I will don my healing kit, respec, and go heal. I wouldn't do this for just any random group of people, but I care enough about my guild, and want them to succeed, that I will do whatever I can to help them out.
Again, this may not be the philosophy for everyone, but it's something to think about. Forcing someone to respec and regear is not the same and is very wrong imo, but making a choice to do so if needed, I believe, shows a higher character and dedication of a person.
Quote:
Just because hybrids CAN respec, it doesn't mean they should NEED to respec. IMO, if you're a hybrid but you outgear/outplay another player of that 'role', you have earned a raid slot in the role of your choice.
no healer = no raid. respeccing should indeed be a choice. keeping 9 others plus you from a successful raid is also a choice.
last night's daily was H UP. we were gonna do a quick guild run with our core people. of course, no healer. our Elem shammy logged in(who does sick dps post-patch, always #1 in H Vault pugs). we told him we'd love him to come...but he needed to respec. he yanked some money from the gbank headed to SW...45 mins later, we finished the smoothest run of H UP ever. then he says "i think i like healing". (un)fortunately we usually have plenty of healers.
point is, everybody wins.
I love playing a hybrid for exactly this reason. I can respec and fill any role needed, and fill it well. That being said, I'm way more effective as a DPS than I am as a tank, with my current gear and skill set.
I pick up off-set gear mostly through raiding, passing to other classes who need it for their main spec.
I pick up off-set gear mostly through raiding, passing to other classes who need it for their main spec.
tommyguns wrote:
anyone else find it easier to acquire offset pieces than main set? i got almost a full epic healing set, yet still a few Ret blues.
Yes! Completely cleared Naxx twice now plus about 8-9 wings on different occasions and have only seen sidegrades so far that I've passed on for other guildies. Tanking set is looking good though.
Scholar
16 posts
I have a prot pally to do instances.
I am working on a holy PvP set for when I get bored of instances and raids.
Never shall my PvP life and raiding life shall meet.
My feeling is you pay money for the game, play it how you want to. I've been asked to re-spec heals for raids and laughed in the raid leaders face (followed by a boot from the group). Anyone that constantly asks you to re-spec is just taking advantage of you.
I am working on a holy PvP set for when I get bored of instances and raids.
Never shall my PvP life and raiding life shall meet.
My feeling is you pay money for the game, play it how you want to. I've been asked to re-spec heals for raids and laughed in the raid leaders face (followed by a boot from the group). Anyone that constantly asks you to re-spec is just taking advantage of you.
Underperforming players are the bane of "casual" raiding guilds, because casual raiding guilds aren't equipped to handle them. Some people take casual in the proper sense: that you aren't going to be expected to show up to raid 6 nights/week and be grateful for the 7th night off to farm for consumables. You aren't going to be booted because you don't match the latest post-patch min/max requirements. You aren't going to be screamed at for being only slightly above average compared to the zomfguber that surrounds you.
Other people take casual to mean, "do whatever the **** you want and you'll still get purplz."
I'm in a "progression" raiding guild on my realm. We're not hardcore. We currently do 25 man raids up to 4 nights/week, with Tuesdays and weekends off. (There are usually 10-mans running on those days.) Raiding schedule isn't what defines a guild as casual/hardcore/whatever. The schedule just speaks to how many people are on and what that allows us to plan for. When I first joined the guild, they were progressing through Naxx (10 and 25). Now, we've recorded clears of both, we've done Sarth + 1 (10 and 25) and we're working on EoE (10 and 25) and will be spending some time on Sarth + 2 soon. What started as a pretty laid back approach is starting to ramp up now that we've had a chance to observe people in raids over time. Warnings and reminders for such things as not dropping a disease bomb in the middle of the raid and not getting smoked by red swirling patches of doom from Kel'Thuzad are turning into, "Seriously, all you're required to do is dps and not die to those things...if you can't manage that, you shouldn't be raiding."
And we can get away with it...you know why? Because it says so in our guild description. We're a progression raiding guild, meaning that players are required to adapt to and master the gimmicks of each fight so that the guild as a whole can progress. Dropping bombs or getting yourself killed in myriad stupid ways has already cost several people epic upgrades that they thought they were first in line for. We have 10-man Naxx groups for gearing new raiders and alts...any other 10-man groups (ie. OS/EoE) are by invite only, and invites are based on performance in 25-man raids.
Our plan is to get into Ulduar the day it goes live and start progressing. Our core group is already well geared for it, and we'll continue farming Naxx/OS etc. until Ulduar becomes available, but we already know that Ulduar is going to signal the "retirement" of many raiders in our guild, because they can't be counted on to do what's necessary.
Other people take casual to mean, "do whatever the **** you want and you'll still get purplz."
I'm in a "progression" raiding guild on my realm. We're not hardcore. We currently do 25 man raids up to 4 nights/week, with Tuesdays and weekends off. (There are usually 10-mans running on those days.) Raiding schedule isn't what defines a guild as casual/hardcore/whatever. The schedule just speaks to how many people are on and what that allows us to plan for. When I first joined the guild, they were progressing through Naxx (10 and 25). Now, we've recorded clears of both, we've done Sarth + 1 (10 and 25) and we're working on EoE (10 and 25) and will be spending some time on Sarth + 2 soon. What started as a pretty laid back approach is starting to ramp up now that we've had a chance to observe people in raids over time. Warnings and reminders for such things as not dropping a disease bomb in the middle of the raid and not getting smoked by red swirling patches of doom from Kel'Thuzad are turning into, "Seriously, all you're required to do is dps and not die to those things...if you can't manage that, you shouldn't be raiding."
And we can get away with it...you know why? Because it says so in our guild description. We're a progression raiding guild, meaning that players are required to adapt to and master the gimmicks of each fight so that the guild as a whole can progress. Dropping bombs or getting yourself killed in myriad stupid ways has already cost several people epic upgrades that they thought they were first in line for. We have 10-man Naxx groups for gearing new raiders and alts...any other 10-man groups (ie. OS/EoE) are by invite only, and invites are based on performance in 25-man raids.
Our plan is to get into Ulduar the day it goes live and start progressing. Our core group is already well geared for it, and we'll continue farming Naxx/OS etc. until Ulduar becomes available, but we already know that Ulduar is going to signal the "retirement" of many raiders in our guild, because they can't be counted on to do what's necessary.
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