I know that a fast weapon is best for tanking and I sort of understand the reasons for it, but is there a point at which the weapon is too fast and isn't producing high enough numbers on each hit?
I ask because recently a rather nice blue dagger in Nexus dropped and we didn't have a rogue, I decided to pass on it as the other members of my group assured me that daggers were not for warriors. However this dagger had a lot more dps on it and better stats than my current weapon.
So i was wondering, should i have taken the dagger seeing as it was better than either of my weapons, or are daggers not for tanking due to hitting to lightly?
Thanks for your replies.
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Weapon Speed: is faster always better?
Weapon Speed: is faster always better?Follow
No, you shouldn't have taken the dagger you want a fast tanking weapon. Tanking weapons are more for their stats than their speed although faster weapons are better for several reasons:
1. Steadier Rage generation (missing/getting parried or dodged with a slower weapon means a longer gap between hits)
2. Steadier Threat generation (same reasons as #1.)
3. On hit attacks such as Heroic Strike will be more effective with a faster weapon (more hits-> more HS)
1. Steadier Rage generation (missing/getting parried or dodged with a slower weapon means a longer gap between hits)
2. Steadier Threat generation (same reasons as #1.)
3. On hit attacks such as Heroic Strike will be more effective with a faster weapon (more hits-> more HS)
A slower weapon means better dps off Heroic Strike, Devastate and such due to higher top end damage. I tend to go with the slower weapon, if the weapons have the similar stats.
Many tanking weapons do cmoe with a fast speed.
As you get higher level gear you may find your slef way above the crit cap, so going for a lil bit extra dmg may be an option with the buffs to warrior tanking.
lorimath linked a build a while back that included deep wounds, this is great for AOe tanking as it procs off damage shield/T-clap and shockwave. This would be better with a slower weapon for the fact that a slower weapon deals more damage per hit than a slower weapon of the same level.
To be honest you should take the best weapon you can get, despite speed.
at the moment I am using the red sword of battle.....or something, as its the best weapon i can lay my hhands on, due to my servers lack of raid capable players(Stay away ftom 'Steamwheedle Cartel' if you plan on raiding they are all ****** even <Devotion>)
As you get higher level gear you may find your slef way above the crit cap, so going for a lil bit extra dmg may be an option with the buffs to warrior tanking.
lorimath linked a build a while back that included deep wounds, this is great for AOe tanking as it procs off damage shield/T-clap and shockwave. This would be better with a slower weapon for the fact that a slower weapon deals more damage per hit than a slower weapon of the same level.
To be honest you should take the best weapon you can get, despite speed.
at the moment I am using the red sword of battle.....or something, as its the best weapon i can lay my hhands on, due to my servers lack of raid capable players(Stay away ftom 'Steamwheedle Cartel' if you plan on raiding they are all ****** even <Devotion>)
Sesseth wrote:
A slower weapon means better dps off Heroic Strike, Devastate and such due to higher top end damage. I tend to go with the slower weapon, if the weapons have the similar stats.
All other things (DPS, stats) being the same, you'll generate more threat with a fast weapon than with a slow weapon when in a high-rage situation, due to faster Heroic Strikes.
It depends on what weapon you already got.
If you have a really cool level 70 tank epic weapon then aint worth it. If you dont have anything funcy then keep the dagger until you can replace it with a tanking weapon. If I remember correctly this dagger had more damage than the epic 70 I had ...( 110 damage something? )but besides that it had no other tanking stats.
If you want to compare how much damage you do with that dagger do a recount test and see if the dps is actually climbing or descending.
If you have a really cool level 70 tank epic weapon then aint worth it. If you dont have anything funcy then keep the dagger until you can replace it with a tanking weapon. If I remember correctly this dagger had more damage than the epic 70 I had ...( 110 damage something? )but besides that it had no other tanking stats.
If you want to compare how much damage you do with that dagger do a recount test and see if the dps is actually climbing or descending.
Sesseth wrote:
A slower weapon means better dps off Heroic Strike, Devastate and such due to higher top end damage. I tend to go with the slower weapon, if the weapons have the similar stats.
A common mistake ..
Picture 2 weapons, I'll use fictitious numbers for ease of comparison.
100 DPS weapon @ 3.0 speed, 300 Avg Damage (Weapon A)
100 DPS weapon @ 1.5 speed, 150 Avg Damage (Weapon B)
With Heroic Strike :
Weapon A hits once every 3.0 secs for 300 + 495 = 795 damage
Weapon B hits once every 1.5 seconds for 150 + 495 = 645 damage
So, per individual strike, Weapon A hits harder ... but, Weapon B hits twice as often as Weapon A.
Making Weapon B therefore does 1290 damage every 3 seconds (430 DPS), whereas weapon A only does 795 damage every 3 seconds (265 DPS)
With Heroic Strike, faster weapons are better.
The only argument for a slower weapon is devastate, but your devastate gains are balance by the HS gains at best, making the faster weapon still better due to smoother rage and TPS generation.
Regarding the OP's question ... Daggers do less weapon damage per hit than other 1 handers. Here's another example:
100 DPS weapon @ 1.5 speed, 150 Avg Damage (Weapon A - Dagger)
100 DPS weapon @ 1.5 speed, 150 Avg Damage (Weapon B - Sword)
Let's say you have 2000 AP - this is converted to 142.9 dps. Now every strike of the weapon takes pure weapon damage (150 in each case) added to weapon damage derived from the dps which you got from your AP.
However, when you have a dagger, this AP derived damage is calculated as if the dagger was 1.7 speed, whereas the Sword is calculated as if it was 2.4 speed. As a result:
With Heroic Strike:
Weapon A hits for 150 + 495 + (142.9 * 1.7) = 737.9 per hit
Weapon B hits for 150 + 495 + (142.9 * 2.4) = 837.9 per hit
Same DPS, same stats, same speed .. dagger hits for less ... don't use daggers - they are rogue weapons.
Here Endith the lesson
Edited, Jan 12th 2009 3:11pm by robertlofthouse
Edited, Jan 12th 2009 3:12pm by robertlofthouse
Don't forget, slower weapons get more out of parry.
Generally, if you devastate more, slower weapons are better, as rob pointed out. If you HS more, faster weapons are better.
A really good reason to NOT get a dagger is weapon normalization.
Daggers reduce the amount of AP you get to use on skill attacks. Other 1h weapons gain more from AP.
HS isn't normalized. While Devastate is.
Wowwiki said;
This means that your base weapon damage from Devastate with a 1h (other than daggers) is the only contributing factor for it's damage out put, if all stats considered otherwise are the same.
Edited, Jan 12th 2009 8:43am by devioususer
Edited, Jan 12th 2009 8:43am by devioususer
Generally, if you devastate more, slower weapons are better, as rob pointed out. If you HS more, faster weapons are better.
A really good reason to NOT get a dagger is weapon normalization.
Daggers reduce the amount of AP you get to use on skill attacks. Other 1h weapons gain more from AP.
HS isn't normalized. While Devastate is.
Wowwiki said;
Quote:
Currently, the normalized weapon damage for instant attacks is:
normalized_damage = base_weapon_damage + (X * Attack Power / 14)
where X is:
* 1.7 for daggers
* 2.4 for other one-handed weapons
* 3.3 for two-handed weapons
* 2.8 for ranged weaponsThis means that your base weapon damage from Devastate with a 1h (other than daggers) is the only contributing factor for it's damage out put, if all stats considered otherwise are the same.
Edited, Jan 12th 2009 8:43am by devioususer
Edited, Jan 12th 2009 8:43am by devioususer
devioususer wrote:
Don't forget, slower weapons get more out of parry.
True, but correct me if I'm wrong, if you cap your expertise, then being parried (slow or fast weapon) becomes a thing of the past.
devioususer wrote:
HS isn't normalized. While Devastate is.
I did NOT know that - you've just blown a good chunk of my beautiful theorising out of the water (actually, replace the weapon damage with weapon damage * 0.5, and the words "Heroic Strike" with Devastate, and the explanation still sticks ;-> )
I always thought that instants (MS, devestate) were normalised where as anyhing with a cast time (slam) or on next attack (HS,cleave) were not.
robertlofthouse wrote;
I meant, when YOU parry a mob attack, your slower weapon gets more out of that parry than a faster weapon would. I doubt mobs have expertise.
Quote:
devioususer wrote:
True, but correct me if I'm wrong, if you cap your expertise, then being parried (slow or fast weapon) becomes a thing of the past.
Quote:
Don't forget, slower weapons get more out of parry.
True, but correct me if I'm wrong, if you cap your expertise, then being parried (slow or fast weapon) becomes a thing of the past.
I meant, when YOU parry a mob attack, your slower weapon gets more out of that parry than a faster weapon would. I doubt mobs have expertise.
I've tanked with the slow axe reward from Wanted: Ragemane's Flipper and I couldn't stand it. I was having spiky threat generation and rage generation and I found myself rage starved far more often than with a faster weapon. So I simply used a fast dps weapon until I got a good tanking one. Now I use Last Laugh, which is a very fast and uber axe (highest dps one hander in the game!) and I'm loving it.
I recommend faster weapons always. No math, just personal experiences.
I recommend faster weapons always. No math, just personal experiences.
just as an fyi, raid boss parry levels have been consistently parsed at around 14-15%, meaning youd have to stack a ******* of expertise rating to remove parries from the table.
redbarronthesecond wrote:
I always thought that instants (MS, devestate) were normalised where as anyhing with a cast time (slam) or on next attack (HS,cleave) were not.
Yeah, that's pretty much what Devioususer said.
devioususer wrote:
I meant, when YOU parry a mob attack, your slower weapon gets more out of that parry than a faster weapon would. I doubt mobs have expertise.
Ah, gotcha, yes - that makes perfect sense (although, there are some really sneaky mobs out there, who knows which of them have looted player's corpses for their expertise gear recently :-D)
quor wrote:
just as an fyi, raid boss parry levels have been consistently parsed at around 14-15%, meaning youd have to stack a sh*tton of expertise rating to remove parries from the table.
Ouch, that's pretty high - still, the theory stands, even if it's impractical :D
Quor wrote:
just as an fyi, raid boss parry levels have been consistently parsed at around 14-15%, meaning youd have to stack a sh*tton of expertise rating to remove parries from the table.
Yeah I have 25 expertise in my tank set atm and I still see a consistent 5% parry rate on bosses. I've checked recount many times and it's always close to that value, maybe just a bit under like 4.95%. Sometimes RNG screws me and I've seen up to 10% shield slams parried but I think that's too far out of the standard deviation to really effect the final average percentile.
So... I'm thinking into 30 expertise. Gonna take a lot of gemming and could use the glove enchant if you're desperate for some reason. I know someone has found the value and has used a webpage to generate a list of gear that would let you reach it as a tank but I forget where I saw that.
Recent Visitors: 163
All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (163)
- Forums
- World of Warcraft
- Class Discussion
- Weapon Speed: is faster always better?
© 2024 Fanbyte LLC